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→Discussion: Some alt. names would be fine (and in some of these cases should be plural).
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{{hatnote: On item on this list was wrong - Justlettersandnumbers (Jlan) didn't list this mass, mess RM here personally, but only at RM; it was moved here administratively as a relisting of a contested "noncontroversial" proposal. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 00:41, 18 September 2014 (UTC)}}
#Pre-loading what is supposed to be a neutral discussion about article names with a boatload of wikipolitical and personalizing antagonism is a process violation. This is not a vote and nominators are not supposed to be campaigning, much less doing so in a way that verges on personal attacks. All of Justlettersandnumbers's aspersion-casting about my editorial judgment and competence seems to be happening because the nom's RMs now at issue, with only a handful of potential exceptions, are poorly supported by facts, policy, normal practice, or logic; it is an ''[[ad hominem]]'' fallacy attempting to hand-wave attention away from the lack of merit inherent in these proposed moves to names like [[Teeswater (sheep)]] or worse yet, [[Forest Mountain]] (?!).
#{{tq|"I don't see that another discussion is necessarily required for most of these"}} &ndash; Of course it is. Neither of the prior discussions Justlettersandnumbers referenced, about unrelated articles, are particularly relevant. The first was about reverting to ''status quo ante'' due to moves being undiscussed, and whether the names comported with [[WT:AT]] policy was not the subject of the discussion, which was about addressing a process matter. I fully expect we'll be revisiting many of those dog article names in more narrowly defined, small groups, soon enough. We've already agreed that reverting to ''status quo ante'' in this case would be pointless if we're immediately (and now, already) going to get into discussion of the merits of different naming proposals. So it's essentially totally senselesspointless to bring up the dogs reversion at all. The second was about a factual matter to do with capitalization in one particular horse breed case, which has nothing to do with the natural vs. parenthetical disambiguation matter at issue now. {{tq|"Both ended with restoration of the ''status quo ante''"}} &ndash; That's because it's what happens when a dispute arises over a move, until the dispute is resolved on the merits of the arguments (and it's not {{em|required}} that it be done, just common; [[WP:BRD]] is an optional process, not a policy.) In that case there had been no agreement to defer a ''status quo ante'' move until discussion on the merits, and that discussion still hasn't happened about those articles. In this case, there was such an agreement, and that discussion is happening in the [[#Poll]] section. Not comparable cases.<p>That said, I think we do have something like a consensus, at least among editors spending much time on animal breeds, that (provided we continue capitalizing breed names, an idea that [[WP:BIRDCON]] suggests may be more controversial than most breed editors think it is), we should capitalize the species name when it is almost invariably included in the breed name, e.g. [[Norwegian Forest Cat]]. In some cases, such as [[American Paint Horse]] whether this is the case is open to dispute (plenty of reliable sources can be found that refer to the American Paint as such, so the case for WP itself insisting that the name "is" American Paint Horse may be an [[WP:NOR]] and [[WP:NPOV]] problem, in which case it should be at [[American Paint horse]] per [[MOS:CAPS]] and [[WP:NATURAL]]. It's not a case I would care to argue about in detail here, as it's just a distraction. It has no impact on the list of moves contemplated here, in which Justlettersandnumbers wants to {{em|prevent}} inclusion of the breed name entirely unless it's in the form of parenthetical disambiguation, for reasons that aren't very clear.</p>
#{{tq|"There are, I think, two other types of incompetent move in the complete list: the addition of an unnecessary "disambiguation" to a title that requires none, such as adding "chicken" to [[White-faced Black Spanish]]"}} &ndash; Skipping for now the second ''ad-homimen'' attack, it's not at all certain that an RM focusing on [[White-faced Black Spanish chicken]] will conclude that this should be at [[White-faced Black Spanish]], and same goes for the other similar cases. Justlettersandnumbers themself have proposed several moves above that contradict nom's own position on this one, further indication that nom may be playing an "undo SMcCandlish" game instead of focusing on what the correct titles should be per our titling policy. We {{em|routinely}} (and naturally) disambiguate names for breeds and whatnot if they can be misinterpreted as referring to people or groups thereof. This accounts for a large number of disambiguated breed names, regardless of species, because most of them are partially or entirely geonyms, and these are usually interpreted as having or sometimes having human referents. (There are some other articles not mentioned here that need fixing in this regard, e.g. [[:Brown Caucasian]], [[:Brown Carpathian]], and [[:Indo-Brazilian]]).
#{{tq|hyphenation against all the evidence in the sources, such as [[Naked-neck chicken]] when even in the hyphen-crazy UK it is called Naked Neck.}} Yet another hand-wave to distract; that article title is not at issue here, and this RM raises a grand total of zero hyphenation issues. But while we're on it: The hyphenated form occurs, too. But given that the unhyphenated one is more common, that's a simple [[WP:COMMONNAME]] matter, and need not be a source of melodramatics. A rare case like this has virtually no relevance to the rest of this discussion, or anything else for that matter.
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#Jlan somehow expresses shock and outrage that, as cleanup efforts among inconsistent article names in breed categories have progressed slowly over several months, exclusively using RM processes since the ANI about not using RM, than the names have become decreasingly inconsistent. What could possibly surprise Jlan about it? It's how Wikipedia works.
#Jlan's renewed suggestion to move [[Estonian Bacon pig]] back to the absurdly misleading [[Estonian bacon]] (it fails both the precision and recognizability [[WP:CRITERIA]]) triggered immediate resistance, which JLan glossed over as if no one objected. That sure seems like IDHT again. The fact that I moved that article myself months ago says nothing about the quality of the move (all moves have to be performed my someone, after all &ndash; pages don't move themselves around), and my "citing" it ({{em|mentioning}} it &ndash; Jlan is misusing "citation" here as hyperbole, since an article name isn't a policy, guideline, arbcom decision or even essay that can be cited) in the context of another RM doesn't undermine that RM, which is based on policy not that particular example, one that is extremely unlikely to be reverted to Estonian Bacon anyway. Cherry picking one tiny sub-argument in one related RM discussion, about of dozens of them, to pick at on not-really-valid procedural technicality, isn't an argument, it's a [[hand wave]] distraction.
**#'''Crucially''' (and possibly indicative of [[WP:OWN]] issues), {{em|no one}} has moved that, or any other of these articles, back. Jlan seems to think that the mass RM that Jlan agreed to back away from, an agreement now clearly being reneged on, is the only BRD revert anyone could have made. But that's patent nonsense; any one of these renames could have been reverted, without any RM process, without even a discussion, just a demand for a discussion, by any editor at any time before this more substantive discussion launched, yet it {{em|didn't happen}}. Every word of Wikipedia is written by changing a page here and seeing if it sticks. When it sticks, we move on and build on it, we don't raise histrionic, confused, [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]]ing and [[WP:POINT]]y, mile-long piles of process to wallow in. See [[WP:FILIBUSTER]], [[WP:NOT#BUREAUCRACY]], and [[WP:WIKILAWYER]], and [[signal-to-noise ratio]] for that matter.
#'''Also crucially''', there demonstrably is no controversy here, other than the one Jlan is personally manufacturing and perpetuating. Over two months of no controversy about the actual content of the current article names from anyone but Jlan personally is a pretty obvious indication that a new consensus has been formed. (It may be a clear indication of a few other things, too, but editor behavior issues are not an RM matter.) While silence is not the strongest consensus, between the mass RM filing, two ANI cases (one rejected as frivolous, the other resolved and followed without incident), and a number of related but properly formed RMs running concurrently and calmly, there is more than enough "advertising" of this issue that interested parties can comment. As of this writing, they're entirely against Jlan's proposed names. [Update: PigeonIP has also sided with Jlan, but raises no new arguments, and seems to have a confused view of capitalization in English.]
#The fact they were actual former names at one point doesn't make them any less {{em|proposed}} names now; too much time has passed, with too much {{em|explicit agreement}} to not reflexively revert. It's already progressed to a substantive onediscussion about the article titles' relative merits, in many cases, and in others, multiple commenters observe that the cases are particular and need to be the subject of their own individual RMs. The idea that discussion on the merits of what the names should be has to proceed from what the names used to be, the names Jlan prefers, is transparently farcical at this late date. Jlan is proceeding from a false basis that there's some kind of popularity contest to [[WP:WINNING|"win"]], based on some article titles equivalent of pole position, as if the current name of a page has special imprimatur or seniority, like an incumbent politician up for re-election, or someone relying upon squatter's rights to a domain name. As noted above, Jlan already agreed, upon admin advice, that reverting to the old names was not necessary to discuss whether the new ones were better, so this is yet another hand wave. #See Jlan's opening statement {{tq|1="I'd hoped someone else might deal with this, but it seems not."}}, and later {{tq|1="I'm truly sorry about the amount of work involved, for everyone, whatever happens. I suppose that is more or less a definition of [[WP:DISRUPTIVE]] editing."}} The first indicates that Jlan acknowledged over a month ago that there wasn't any actual controversy about the content of the moves (and Jlan knows the procedural controversy about the process by which they were arrived at was resovled at ANI, since Jlan cited that ANI case one sentence earlier). The second of these quoted statements indicates that Jlan also acknowledges the disruptiveness inherent the approach taken by this editor, who did it anyway, and is now trying to go back to that method despite the discussion having moved past it.
#Finally, I'm not sure why Jlan, except as another [[fallacy ad hominem|fallacy ''ad homimem'']], re-mentions old move discussions that aren't relevant to these cases, after it's already been pointed out why they're not relevant &ndash; [[American Paint Horse]] raised a debate about whether in that individual special case the species name was formally a part of the breed name, a question not raised about any of the articles at issue here, and the dog one was a pure ''status quo ante'' revert that, unlike the extant discussion as it has moved on now, did not address what the names should actually be, but only the process followed. Most of us understand that such arguments will not magically become relevant just because one repeatrepeats oneself. So, it's yet another, very clear, indication of a IDHT problem. The fact that Jlan's entire mass listing and repeated rehash arguments about it fails to discern even that the article names resulting from of the horse and dog cases, like around half of the renames youJlan'res mass-mess-RM proposes, directly contradict each other, is highly indicative of what the problem here is.
{{collapse bottom}}
::I could go on, but I don't think it would be useful to do so. I'm not angry at Jlan for having personality clashes with me; rather, the arguments presented by this editor to mire or derail this and related RMs are not sustainable under any RM-relevant rationale, and that's all that needs to be shown here.<br />I've suggested that Jlan (and Montanabw and WhatamIdoing) and I shoudl probably engage in a formal [[WP:Dispute resolution]] process; much of this heat vs. light appears to be a personality conflict, not a [[WP:AT]] one, really. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 00:41, 18 September 2014 (UTC) Update: Montanabw has pointedly refused dispute resolution.[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJustlettersandnumbers&diff=626138806&oldid=626020413] <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 06:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 
*'''Comment''' I really don't want to be involved in this messy business but I will point out to SMc where he questions why Fowl is only used on some chicken breeds - Fowl exclusively refers to birds within the poultry fancy with Game in their name (i.e.: [[Gamecock|Gamefowl]]). We don't have Rhode Island Red fowl, but Old English Game fowl is acceptable. Shamo fowl would make no sense because no Game in the name. You really have to take things by case by case. No one system is going to work. [[User:JTdale|<font color="maroon">'''JTdale'''</font>]] [[User talk:JTdale|<sup><font color="green">'''Talk'''</font></sup>]] 11:00, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
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* '''Neutral''' I've written many of these articles. I used the parenthetical because the word "sheep" (or "chicken" or "cow" or "pig") is ''most definitely not'' part of the proper name for these animal breeds. Its purpose is solely for disambiguation. This is quite important, since in most cases sheep are named for places. This editorial policy, at '''[[WP:NCDAB]]''', seems quite clear to me. However, as to whether the parens are necessary or not seems a particularly academic question. As long as we use the disambiguation term where necessary, readers will be well served. I personally prefer to defer to whatever other primary authors in this area, like BlindEagle and Justlettersandnumbers, want to do. <font style="font-family:Georgia, serif;">[[User:Steven Walling|Steven Walling]]&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;[[User talk:Steven Walling|<span style="color: #8080b0">talk</span>]]</font> 20:22, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
*'''Comment 1''': I favor Steven Walling's comment that a certain amount of deference should be given to the article writers, such as JLAN in this case, with the caveat that titling consistency with a set of articles (dog breeds, horse breeds, sheep breeds, chicken breeds) should be maintained whenever possible (I say this in part because WikiProject Equine takes the opposite position on parenthetical titling for some very thoroughly discussed reasons that are not relevant here, but we have no intent to impose our views on other animal projects that have a different convention for standardization). [[User:Montanabw|<font color="006600">Montanabw</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Montanabw|<font color="purple">(talk)</font>]]</sup> 21:32, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
**The utter lack of any form of consistency within almost all breed categories (much less between any of them) is why this ever arose in the first place. The horses category is much more consistent than most, which is a blessing, and I've repeatedly supported you in resisting moves that would thwart it, which you seem to forget. No one is accusing or suggesting that the equine wikiproject is or could be "imposing [their] views on other animal projects". Rather, we have a [[WP:AT]] policies that are being ignored by many articles in most of these categories. There is no provision at [[WP:AT]] policy "that a certain amount of deference should be given to the article writers"; we have that policy, and have elevated it to policy level, specifically to avoid the problems inherent in article writers dictating how "their" articles are named. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 00:41, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
***Before you came around, there was consistency at least within the pigeon category, focusing on parenthetical disambiguation. Same was true for poultry. Thank you very much. --[[User:PigeonIP|PigeonIP]] ([[User talk:PigeonIP|talk]]) 12:55, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
*'''Comment 2''': SMC's ongoing page move and titling disputes, combined with a penchant for rather vicious personal attacks while simultaneously [[psychological projection|accusing others of attacking him]] (see, e.g. [[Talk:Kiger Mustang]] are really getting out of hand and I am wondering if it time to discuss how to stop this endless drama. [[User:Montanabw|<font color="006600">Montanabw</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Montanabw|<font color="purple">(talk)</font>]]</sup> 21:32, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
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*****Nonsense. I am not trying to "silence" you (hell, I don't read most of this stuff you post, as it's tl;dr), I'm just trying to point out that you ARE being real annoying and obnoxious. It would be nice if you'd stop personalizing everything and make your points in a more concise manner. [[User:Montanabw|<font color="006600">Montanabw</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Montanabw|<font color="purple">(talk)</font>]]</sup> 04:29, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
****** I agree with Montanabw here. I can't even be bothered to contribute to this discussion because its such a mess, but all you seem to do SMc is throw accusations and policy links at people, half the time citing yourself. I've seen you start a discussion by accusing someone of disrupting Wikipedia simply because you disagreed with their interpretation of rules or their style of writing instead of discussing it sensibly or letting the person explain their changes. For gods sake start acting in a reasonable manner. [[User:JTdale|<font color="maroon">'''JTdale'''</font>]] [[User talk:JTdale|<sup><font color="green">'''Talk'''</font></sup>]] 11:01, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 
'''====Comment on pigeons'''====
* cause I spend some time (a year or two ago) to go through the [[:Category:Pigeon breeds]] to give them "the correct" names, refering to the [http://www.entente-ee.com/deutsch/sparten/tauben/Dateien/2014/Reglemente%20Listen%20neu/ELRT,%20Status%20%2001%20-12-2013.pdf EE-List of pigeon breeds].  Befor SMcCandlish showed up, there was a handable system:
::# [[Ice Pigeon]]: "pigeon" is part of the name of the breed, the article is about one breed of (fancy-)pigeon.
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* I hope I did not miss any breed. I do have the same problems to find a reference with [[Sverdlovsk blue-gray mottle-headed pigeon]] as I do have with the Ural one. --[[User:PigeonIP|PigeonIP]] ([[User talk:PigeonIP|talk]]) 14:35, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 
::Thanks for the detaildetailed level of the response, but this analysis is still missing the fact that [[WP:NATURAL]] rquiresrequires us to use [[:Jacobin pigeon]] not [[:Jacobin (pigeon)]]; there's no rationale for using parenthetical disambiguation here. If in a few cases like [[Ice Pigeon]] the "[p|P]igeon" part is capitalized because it's universally considered part of the breed name, that's surely fine, but lack of this circumstance would not call for using brackets. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 16:38, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
:::Thanks for missing the fact, that "Fantail pigeon", "Helmet pigeon" and others are refering to groups of spiecial variations of pigeons... --[[User:PigeonIP|PigeonIP]] ([[User talk:PigeonIP|talk]]) 17:33, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
:::I haven't missed that fact at all, and it has nothing to do with the naming, unless you're suggesting that they all each cover {{em|multiple}} breeds or varieties of pigeon, in which case the proper titles would be [[Fantail pigeons]], etc. (note the plural). Still no case for parenthetical disambiguation. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 06:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
:::btw. a ''Jacobin pigeon'' is the [[Danish Jacobin]] as well. --[[User:PigeonIP|PigeonIP]] ([[User talk:PigeonIP|talk]]) 17:54, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
::::That would just be another case for natural disambiguation (to distinguish from [[Jacobin]]s, in the original human sense, of [[Denmark]]), meanwhile [[WP:CONCISE]] would instruct us to use [[:Jacobin pigeon]] not [[:Danish Jacobin pigeon]]. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 06:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 
====Comment refering to chicken====
* '''Comment refering to chicken''' (refering to [http://www.entente-ee.com/deutsch/sparten/gefluegel/dateien/2013/Verzeichnis%20R%20F%2028042013.xls Listing of European Poultry Breeds and Colours], [http://www.poultryclub.org/breed-gallery/ PCGB breed gallery], [http://www.poultryclub.org/img/Breed%20Classification.pdf breed classification of the PCGB], [http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/PDF%20Forms/APA%20Recognized%20Breeds%20and%20Varieties%20Sept2012.pdf APA recognised breeds and varieties])
** In ''[[Old English Pheasant fowl]]'' "Fowl" is part of the breeds name and it should be [[Old English Pheasant Fowl]] but it is not, because there was a "typo"...
** [[Pekin chicken]]: If not [[Pekin (chicken)]] [www.poultryclub.org/img/Breed Classification.pdf ] it is the [[Pekin Bantam]][http://www.pekinbantamclub.co.uk/] (less understandable for non chicken-fanciers, but correct. "Pekin chicken" is not.)
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* this list is to time-consuming. Why not moving back, to where it all began and discussing from there. Case by case, with references, as it should have been from the beginning --[[User:PigeonIP|PigeonIP]] ([[User talk:PigeonIP|talk]]) 14:35, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 
::Same issueissues as with pigeons, above. There is no case for using parenthetical naming. You're mistaking "Ancona chicken" as an assertion that that string is the name of the breed; but it's "Ancona" followed by natural disambiguation. No case has been made for violating [[WP:NATURAL]] policy and using parenthetical disambiguation to produce an unintuitive name like "Ancona (chicken)", which seems to refer to an individual notable chicken named "Ancona". No one is proposing that the official breed name is "Ancona Chicken", fully captalized like that (as it is for breeds in which the species name really is part of the formal breed name, as in [[:American Quarter Horse]] and [[:Norwegian Forest Cat]].<span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 16:38, 20 September 2014 (UTC)<p>PS: Why not move them back? Because it was already agreed, even by Jlan, over a month ago that a ''status quo ante'' revert would be a waste of time. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 06:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 
* '''====Comment refering to [[:Category:Turkey breeds|turkey breeds]]'''====
** one example: ''Sphilbrick moved page Buff (turkey) to Buff turkey: Use natural disambiguation when possible, not parentheticals, per WP:AT policy, and like virtually all other animal breed articles''[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Buff_turkey&diff=611973922&oldid=573452648] (others where done by SMCs)
** my reference: European list of Poultry Breeds and colours
** [[Black turkey]] --> [[Black (turkey)]]; the breed is at least not identical with the [[Norfolk Black]], another black turkey (there is a mistake in that article)
** [[Bronze turkey]] --> [[Bronze (turkey)]]; this American breed is not identical with the German/European bronze, that was the GEHs ''Endangered breed of the year'' 2008; it is not identical with the Cambridge bronze, the Black winged bronze and maybe some others
** [[Buff turkey]] --> [[Buff (turkey)]]; the American breed is not identical with the German/European Buff Turkey, the English Buff Turkey (= nl: ''Engelsekalkoen buff'') (see [http://www.entente-ee.com/deutsch/sparten/gefluegel/dateien/2013/Verzeichnis%20R%20F%2028042013.xls Listing of European Poultry Breeds and Coulours]) and the buff czech turkey as well [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Czech_Turkey]
** knowing this and taking in mind that [[Heritage turkey]] is not a breed, but a group of turkeys, what is the use of
*** [[Auburn turkey]] (breed or any auburn turkey?;
*** [[Royal Palm turkey]] (breed or group of breeds?)
*** [[Slate turkey]] (breed or group of breeds?) (by the way, the "Blue" or "Lavander" is another on within the PCGB[http://www.poultryclub.org/breed-gallery/turkeys/]; misinterpretation? another American breed? The american blue turkey is another one... (see EE))
*** [[White Holland turkey]] (breed or group of white holland breeds?)
::--[[User:PigeonIP|PigeonIP]] ([[User talk:PigeonIP|talk]]) 17:26, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 
:Same issues as with pigeons and chickens, above. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 06:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
* '''comment on pigs mentioned in the RM'''▼
 
** [[:Danish Protest pig]] → <s>{{no redirect|Danish Protest Pig}}</s> {{no redirect|Rotbuntes Husumer}}▼
▲* '''====comment on pigs mentioned in the RM'''====
*** [[Danish Protest pig]] is a made up name (unreferenced translation). There is no English source provided. The "real" name of that breed is [[Rotbuntes Husumer]] ([http://dad.fao.org/cgi-bin/EfabisWeb.cgi?sid=09d86963ded3babdae467cb2c7e60158,reportsreport8a_50009927 FAO], ''Rotbunte Husumer'' is plural). "Protestschwein" is a nickname.
** [[:JejuDanish BlackProtest pig]] → <s>{{no redirect|JejuDanish BlackProtest Pig}}</s> {{no redirect|JejuRotbuntes native pigHusumer}}
*** [[JejuDanish BlackProtest pig]], again,is a made up name (unreferenced translation). There is no English source forprovided. theThe chosen"real" name. FAOof hasthat itbreed asis [[JejuRotbuntes native pigHusumer]] ([http://dad.fao.org/cgi-bin/EfabisWeb.cgi?sid=09d86963ded3babdae467cb2c7e60158,reportsreport8a_1699reportsreport8a_50009927 FAO]., Another''Rotbunte oneHusumer'' is "Nativeplural). Black Pig",Protestschwein" cited inis a [http://wwwnickname.invil.org/english/speciality/meat/pork/contents.jsp?con_no=602902&page_no=1 tourism page]. The pigs are native to the semi-tropical island Jeju. (= landrace)
** [[:AucklandJeju IslandBlack pig]] → <s>{{no redirect|AucklandJeju IslandBlack Pig}}</s> is{{no a feral breed [http://www.rarebreeds.co.nz/aucklandpigs.html]redirect|Jeju native pig}}
** [[Jeju Black pig]], again, no source for the chosen name. FAO has it as [[Jeju native pig]] [http://dad.fao.org/cgi-bin/EfabisWeb.cgi?sid=09d86963ded3babdae467cb2c7e60158,reportsreport8a_1699]. Another one is "Native Black Pig", cited in a [http://www.invil.org/english/speciality/meat/pork/contents.jsp?con_no=602902&page_no=1 tourism page]. The pigs are native to the semi-tropical island Jeju. (= landrace)
** [[:Arapawa pig]] → <s>{{no redirect|Arapawa Pig}}</s> is a feral breed [http://www.rarebreeds.co.nz/arapawapigs.html]
** [[:AksaiAuckland Black PiedIsland pig]] → <s>{{no redirect|AksaiAuckland BlackIsland Pied (pig)Pig}}</s> {{ok}} nameis ofa theferal breed ([http://dadwww.faorarebreeds.orgco.nz/cgi-bin/EfabisWebaucklandpigs.cgi?sid=d4538508376ecb0ec4459709264402d5,reportsreport8a_50010079 FAOhtml])
** [[:CasertanaArapawa pig]] → <s>{{no redirect|CasertanaArapawa (pig)Pig}}</s> {{ok}}is namea of theferal breed ([http://dadwww.faorarebreeds.org/cgi-binco.nz/EfabisWebarapawapigs.cgi?sid=d4538508376ecb0ec4459709264402d5,reportsreport8a_50010050 FAOhtml])
** [[:LatvianAksai WhiteBlack Pied pig]] → {{no redirect|LatvianAksai WhiteBlack Pied (pig)}} {{ok}} per sourcename of the articlebreed ([http://dad.fao.org/cgi-bin/EfabisWeb.cgi?sid=d4538508376ecb0ec4459709264402d5,reportsreport8a_50010079 FAO])
** [[:Lithuanian WhiteCasertana pig]] → {{no redirect|Lithuanian WhiteCasertana (pig)}} {{ok}} per sourcename of the article +breed ([http://dad.fao.org/cgi-bin/EfabisWeb.cgi?sid=d4538508376ecb0ec4459709264402d5,reportsreport8a_50010125reportsreport8a_50010050 FAO])
** [[:LacombeLatvian White pig]] → {{no redirect|LacombeLatvian White (pig)}} {{ok}} nameper source of the breedarticle ([http://dad.fao.org/cgi-bin/EfabisWeb.cgi?sid=d4538508376ecb0ec4459709264402d5,reportsreport8a_50009624 FAO], [http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/swine/lacombe/index.htm Oklahoma State University])
** [[:SardaLithuanian White pig]] → {{no redirect|SardaLithuanian White (pig)}} {{ok}} nameper source of the breedarticle + ([http://dad.fao.org/cgi-bin/EfabisWeb.cgi?sid=d4538508376ecb0ec4459709264402d5,reportsreport8a_175000004reportsreport8a_50010125 FAO])
** [[:Swabian-HallLacombe swinepig]] → {{no redirect|Swabian-HallLacombe Swine(pig)}} {{ok}} ([http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/swine/swabianhall/index.htmname Oklahomaof Statethe University],breed ([http://dad.fao.org/cgi-bin/EfabisWeb.cgi?sid=09d86963ded3babdae467cb2c7e60158d4538508376ecb0ec4459709264402d5,reportsreport8a_50009928reportsreport8a_50009624 FAO] provides only the native name, Subpopulation[http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/swine/lacombe/index.htm ofOklahoma theState [[German Saddleback]University])
** [[:GasconSarda pig]] → {{no redirect|GasconSarda (pig)}} {{ok}} name of the breed ([http://dad.fao.org/cgi-bin/EfabisWeb.cgi?sid=d4538508376ecb0ec4459709264402d5,reportsreport8a_175000004 FAO])
* [[:Swabian-Hall swine]] → {{no redirect|Swabian-Hall Swine}} {{ok}} ([http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/swine/swabianhall/index.htm Oklahoma State University], [http://dad.fao.org/cgi-bin/EfabisWeb.cgi?sid=09d86963ded3babdae467cb2c7e60158,reportsreport8a_50009928 FAO] provides only the native name, Subpopulation of the [[German Saddleback]])
** [[:Kakhetian pig]] → {{no redirect|Kakhetian (pig)}} or {{no redirect|Kakhuri Pig}}▼
* [[:Gascon pig]] → {{no redirect|Gascon (pig)}} {{ok}}
*** comment: most common and transboundary name are [[Kakhuri Pig]], maybe that one is better. ([http://dad.fao.org/cgi-bin/EfabisWeb.cgi?sid=d4538508376ecb0ec4459709264402d5,reportsreport8a_50009913 FAO])▼
▲** [[:Danish ProtestKakhetian pig]] → <s>{{no redirect|DanishKakhetian Protest Pig(pig)}}</s> or {{no redirect|RotbuntesKakhuri HusumerPig}}
** [[:Danish Landrace pig]] → {{no redirect|Danish Landrace (pig)}} {{ok}} name of the breed ([http://dad.fao.org/cgi-bin/EfabisWeb.cgi?sid=d4538508376ecb0ec4459709264402d5,reportsreport8a_50014361 FAO], [http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/swine/danishlandrace/index.htm Oklahoma State University])
▲*** comment: most common and transboundary name are [[Kakhuri Pig]], maybe that one is better. ([http://dad.fao.org/cgi-bin/EfabisWeb.cgi?sid=d4538508376ecb0ec4459709264402d5,reportsreport8a_50009913 FAO])
** [[:Estonian Bacon pig]] → {{no redirect|Estonian Bacon}} or better {{no redirect|Estonian Landrace}}
*** comment: altname is [[Estonian:Danish Landrace pig]] → {{no redirect|Danish Landrace (pig)}} {{ok}} name of the breed ([http://dad.fao.org/cgi-bin/EfabisWeb.cgi?sid=d4538508376ecb0ec4459709264402d5,reportsreport8a_50009866reportsreport8a_50014361 FAO], [http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/swine/danishlandrace/index.htm Oklahoma State University])
** [[:ForestEstonian MountainBacon pig]] → {{no redirect|ForestEstonian MountainBacon}} or better {{no redirect|NewEstonian LesogorLandrace}}
*** comment: movealtname to the better fitting altnameis [[NewEstonian LesogorLandrace]] ([http://dad.fao.org/cgi-bin/EfabisWeb.cgi?sid=d4538508376ecb0ec4459709264402d5,reportsreport8a_50009501reportsreport8a_50009866 FAO]; the native names are ''Novaya Lesogornaya'' and ''Lesogornaya Porodnaya Gruppa'')
▲** [[:KakhetianForest Mountain pig]] → {{no redirect|KakhetianForest (pig)Mountain}} or better {{no redirect|KakhuriNew PigLesogor}}
** comment: move to the better fitting altname [[New Lesogor]] ([http://dad.fao.org/cgi-bin/EfabisWeb.cgi?sid=d4538508376ecb0ec4459709264402d5,reportsreport8a_50009501 FAO]; the native names are ''Novaya Lesogornaya'' and ''Lesogornaya Porodnaya Gruppa'')
 
More pig-relatet RMs are at [[Talk:Asturian Mountain]] and [[Talk:Dutch Landrace#Requested moves]]. The [[Ukrainian Spotted Steppe]] ([http://dad.fao.org/cgi-bin/EfabisWeb.cgi?sid=d4538508376ecb0ec4459709264402d5,reportsreport8a_50010494 FAO]) and [[Ukrainian White Steppe]] ([http://dad.fao.org/cgi-bin/EfabisWeb.cgi?sid=d4538508376ecb0ec4459709264402d5,reportsreport8a_50010495 FAO]) don't have to be distinguished. On [[Talk:Dutch Landrace#Requested moves]] are some "Landrace moves" requested. If they have to be distinguished (like the Dutch Landrace), that shall be through a parenthetical disambiguation. Names like ''Dutch Landrace goat'' are very uncommon.[https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Dutch+Landrace+goat%22&tbm=bks] --[[User:PigeonIP|PigeonIP]] ([[User talk:PigeonIP|talk]]) 20:03, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
 
:Same issues as with pigeons, chickens, and turkeys above. On second thought, despite thanking you for the detail level earlier, at this point I'm fairly certain that adding rambling lists here is not elucidating anything, it's just adding verbiage to a discussion in which the principles and rationales for them are already clear enough. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 06:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 
=== is all that fuss really about reading "sheep" in brackets as individual sheep? ===
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