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→is all that fuss really about reading "sheep" in brackets as individual sheep?: Add comments with relevant guidelines. |
SMcCandlish (talk | contribs) →Reliable sources regularly use natural disambiguation for these breed: How about some sources to put this to bed. |
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:Same issues as with pigeons, chickens, and turkeys above. On second thought, despite thanking you for the detail level earlier, at this point I'm fairly certain that adding rambling lists here is not elucidating anything, it's just adding verbiage to a discussion in which the principles and rationales for them are already clear enough. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 06:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
===Reliable sources regularly use natural disambiguation for these breeds===
Of course, reliable sources (even when they mostly use just the breed name by itself when there's no ambiguity) regularly and predictably use precisely the kind of natural disambiguation as proposed here, when they need to be clear what species they mean (as WP always needs to; we can never presume that any given reader already knows that an article is about cattle or pigs or whatever before going to the article, as one might in a paper about cattle (etc.), and even those often use natural disambiguation anyway). Natural disambiguation is a natural feature of the English language (that's why it's called natural disambiguation, after all). I did this sorucing for a different RM ''(see [[Talk:Asturian Mountain#Requested moves]])'' but it's equally applicable here, and similar source can be found for the entries on the RM list up top:
* {{cite web |url= http://UNESCO.org/new/en/natural-sciences/environment/ecological-sciences/biosphere-reserves/europe-north-america/spain/picos-de-europa/ |title=Picos de Europa |author=<!--Staff writer(s); no by-line.--> |date=April 2014 |quote=autochthonous races of cattle such as the Asturian mountain cattle – Ratina and Casina – and Tudanca cattle. |work=UNESCO.org |publisher=[[United Nations Education, Scientific and Cultural Organization]] (UNESCO)}}
* {{cite web |url= http://UNESCO.org/new/fileadmin/MULTIMEDIA/HQ/SC/pdf/sc_mab_BR_Redes_EN.pdf |format=PDF |quote=Herds of the endangered Casina cattle or Asturian mountain cattle are to be found in Redes |title=Spain: Redes |work=UNESCO.org |date=[unknown]}}
* {{cite web |url= http://VIW1.VetMed.VT.edu/Terminologymgt/RF2Viewer/display.cfm?SCT_ConceptID=30971000009102&refset=332831000009106&requestedTime={ts%20%272013-04-15%2017:28:51%27} |title=Current Concept: Cattle of European origin |work=[[SNOMED]] |quote=Aberdeen Angus cattle ... [http://VIW1.VetMed.VT.edu/Terminologymgt/RF2Viewer/display.cfm?SCT_ConceptID=131563004&refset=332831000009106&requestedTime={ts%20%272013-04-15%2017:28:51%27} Asturian Mountain cattle], Asturian Valley cattle ... [http://viw1.vetmed.vt.edu/Terminologymgt/RF2Viewer/display.cfm?SCT_ConceptID=133384003&refset=332831000009106&requestedTime={ts%20%272013-04-15%2017:28:51%27} Finnish Ayrshire cattle] ... Zavot cattle, Znamensk cattle ... |date=2014 |publisher=[[IHTSDO]]}}
* {{cite journal |url= //TAndFOnline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00015128409435414 |work=Acta Agriculturae Scandinavica |volume=34 |issue=4 |date=1984 |title=Crossbreeding Red Danish, Holstein-Friesian and Finnish Ayrshire Cattle: Performance of Foundation Females and Traits of Foundation and First-generation Calves |doi=10.1080/00015128409435414 |first1=L. G.|last1=Christensena |first2=R.|last2=Barlowab |first3=A.|last3=Neimann-S⊘rensena |pages=463–479}}
* {{cite journal |url= //NCBI.NLM.NIH.gov/pubmed/14762087 |work=Journal of Dairy Science |date=February 2004 |volume=87 |issue=2 |pages=4434–499 |title=Quantitative trait Loci for health traits in Finnish Ayrshire cattle |last1=Schulman|first1=N. F.[1] |last2=Viitala|first2=S. M. |last3=de Koning|first3=D. J. |last4=Virta|first4=J. |last5=Mäki-Tanila|first5=A |last6=Vilkki|first6=J. H. |quote=health traits in Finnish Ayrshire dairy cattle}}
* {{cite journal |url= http://JournalOfDairyScience.org/article/S0022-0302%2811%2900419-X/abstract |work=Journal of Dairy Science |volume=94 |issue=8 |pages=4164–4173 |date=August 2011 |title=Marker-assisted breeding value estimation for mastitis resistance in Finnish Ayrshire cattle |first1=H. A.|last1=Mulderemail |first2=M. H.|last2=Lidauer |first3=J. H.|last3=Vilkki |first4=I.|last4=Strandén |first5=R. F.|last5=Veerkamp |doi=10.3168/jds.2010-4112 |quote=clinical mastitis in Finnish Ayrshire cattle}}
* {{cite journal |url= http://CABDirect.org/abstracts/19430100996.html |title=On the occurrence of dropsy in Finnish Ayrshire cattle |last1=Korkman|first1=N. |work=Nordisk Jordbrugsforskning |date=1940 |volume=22 |pages=225–243 |issn=0048-0495}}
* {{cite book |url= //Books.Google.com/books/about/Estimation_of_genetic_parameters_for_rep.html?id=3VpPAAAAYAAJ |chapter=Estimation of genetic parameters for reproductive traits in Finnish Ayrshire cattle |first1=Esa Antero |last1=Mantysaari |publisher=Cornell University |date=August 1988}}
* {{cite journal |url= http://Vivo.Cornell.edu/display/AI-21831995393 |title=Effects of clinical ketosis on test day milk yields in Finnish Ayrshire Cattle |work=Proceedings of the Fifth World Congress on Genetics Applied to Livestock Production |date=1994 |last1=Detilleux |first1=J. C. |last2=Gröhn|first2=Yrjö T. |last3=Quaas|first3=Richard Louis}} (It's not clear why "Cattle" was capitalized here, but it isn't in most sources.)
* {{cite book |url= //Books.Google.com/books?id=Fki3ynmlA_UC&pg=PA209&lpg=PA209&dq=%22Australian+Yorkshire+pig%22+-Wikipedia&source=bl&ots=Y6zrJYFWj8&sig=VGRlKTDHytp8fVRzmDwqmjKTqPE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=X4guVLqAIYOvogSTiIC4DQ&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Australian%20Yorkshire%20pig%22%20-Wikipedia&f=false |chapter=Improving pig performance through breeding and feeding in Vietnam |first1=L. V.|last1=Kinh |first2=L. T.|last2=Hai |title=Pig systems in Asia and the Pacific: How can research and development enhance benefits to the poor? |editor1-last=Thorpe |editor1-first=W. (ed.) |editor2-last=Jemaneh |editor2-first=T. (ed.) |publisher=International Livestock Research Institute |date=November 2006 |pages=79–80 |quote="Australian Yorkshire and Duroc pigs were imported.... Offspring boars sired by Australian Yorkshire and Duroc pigs.... All male offspring of imported Australian Yorkshire pigs had...}}
* {{cite book |url= //Books.Google.com/books?id=laANAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA179&lpg=PA179&dq=%22Ukrainian+Spotted+Steppe+pig%22+-Wikipedia&source=bl&ots=wS_1THTPxh&sig=ov7LU79LL8SMnrRq5TqOeNvRcRg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9W4uVOLRFJfboAS8uIHYDw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Ukrainian%20Spotted%20Steppe%20pig%22%20-Wikipedia&f=false |title=Veterinary Treatment of Pigs |first=Graham R. |last=Duncanson |page=179 |quote=Ukrainian Spotted Steppe pig |publisher=CABI |date=December 13, 2013}}
* {{cite book |url = ftp://ftp.FAO.org/docrep/fao/009/x8750e/x8750e02.pdf |format=PDF |chapter=Global Regions – Breeds at Risk: Europe |work=Farm Animal Genetic Resources Part 2 |publisher=Animal Genetic Resources Group, [[Food and Agriculture Organization]] of the United Nations (FAO) |date=1998 |quote=breeds such as the Black Pied cattle or the Ukrainian Spotted Steppe and Russian Black Pied pigs |page=156 |author=<!--Staff writer(s); no by-line.-->}} Also on p. 150 in [http://daic.dk/infosys/images/daic/farm%20animals%20europa.pdf 1995 edition].
* {{cite journal |url= http://FAO.org/docrep/006/ad250e/ad250e0m.htm |chapter=Development trends in animal production and livestock breeding in Ukraine |first1=M. I. |last1=Baschenko |first1=V. P. |last2=Burkat |quote="Red Steppe cattle and Red cattle ... Black-and-White cattle ... Red Steppe cattle ... Angler cattle ... Brown Calpack cattle ... Grey Ukraine cattle ... Wolynik cattle ... the White Ukraine Steppe Pig, the Mielgoroda Steppe Pig ... |work=Breeding Strategies for Cattle, Sheep and Pigs in Eastern Europe |series=REU Technical Series |issue=47 |publisher=FAO |date=1997}} (It's unclear why, in a handful of cases, the authors capitalized the species name, but it's not very significant, since most sources do not. The document shows a large number of "scannos" – OCR errors – so this may explain it.)
* {{cite journal |url= http://EurekaMag.com/research/000/217/000217359.php |title=The Ukrainian Spotted Steppe pig |last1=Greben'|first1=L. |last2=Greben'|first2=E. |last3=Krylov|first3=N. |last4=Mikhailova|first4=M. |last5=Sorokina|first5=V. |last6=Shcherbak|first6=T. |date=1974 |work=[//WorldCat.org/title/svinovodstvo/oclc/10017335 Svinovodstvo] |issue=9 |pages=28–29}}
* {{cite journal |url= http://EurekaMag.com/research/013/323/013323773.php |last=Grebenj |first=L. K. |date=1937 |title=Breeding operation with the new breed of Ukrainian White Steppe pig |work=Probl. Zivotn |volume=7 |pages=17–131}}
* {{cite journal |url= http://EurekaMag.com/research/013/545/013545942.php |last=Ivanov |first=M. F. |date=1933 |title=The Ukrainian Steppe White Pig – A New Breed |work=Probl. Zhivotn |volume=1 |pages=32-42}} (Note the inversion of "Steppe" and "White", and unusual capitalization of "Pig".)
* {{cite web |url= http://DorsetDownSheep.org.uk/ |title=Dorset Down Sheep |work=DorsetDownSheep.org.uk |publisher=Dorset Down Sheep Breeder's Association}} (After the homepage, they just use "Dorset Down", suggesting that "Dorset Down Sheep" is a natural disambiguation/explanation (capitalized for no particular reason). The "Breed Qualities" page[http://dorsetdownsheep.org.uk/breed.htm] gives it as "Dorset Down", but it is not a formal breed standard, just an overview.
* {{cite book |url= //Books.Google.com/books?id=WJCTL_mC5w4C&pg=PA128&lpg=PA128&dq=%22Dorset+Down+sheep%22+-Wikipedia&source=bl&ots=OQG9IIitef&sig=tIHlCP3qrnwDvyih-iqVXOzos3Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rYwuVMLUGorxoASO9IKIAQ&ved=0CFkQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=%22Dorset%20Down%20sheep%22%20-Wikipedia&f=false |chapter=Breed Profiles: Sheep: Dorset Down |work=The Encyclopedia of Historic and Endangered Livestock and Poultry Breeds |first1=Janet |last1=Vorwald Dohner |page=128 |quote=Dorset Down sheep were exported around the world. |publisher=Yale University Press |date=2001}} (Source typically uses just the breed names, e.g. "Dorset Down", but regularly also uses the longer constructions (e.g. "Dorset Down sheep"), and lower-cases the species name when doing so.)
* {{cite web |url= http://HeritageSheep.org.au/breeds/dorsetdown.html |title=Description of a Dorset Down Sheep |at="Dorset Down" page |work=HeritageSheep.org.au |publisher=Heritage Sheep Australia |date=October 18, 2010 [last updated]}} (Source typically uses just the breed names, e.g. "Dorset Down", but regularly also uses the longer constructions (e.g. "Dorset Down [S|s]heep"), but usually in headings that are title-cased.)
This convincingly shows that breeds have formal names ("Asturian Mountain", " Asturian Valley", "Finnish Ayrshire", "Dorset Down", etc.) to which capitalized species ("Cattle", "Pig", "Sheep" etc. are usually not appended, yet that {{em|they are regularly [[WP:NATURAL]]ly disambiguated by reliable sources in the real world, by appending lower-case species}}. This proves beyond any shadow of doubt that such a practice is weird here, "a made up name", unnatural, etc. Natural disambiguation is a natural feature of the English language. THat's {{em|why}} it's called that. There is abosolutely no case make here for using unnatural, parenthetical disambiguation. Closing this RM, against prior agreement to not do a ''status quo ante'' revert, with a result that leads to just such a ''status quo ante'' revert, is simply going to lead in turn to a large number of renewed on-the-merits RM requests to put the articles at naturally disambiguated names, since both policy and reliable sources support this, and no argument backed by either can be or has been made for parenthetical. I'm prepared to make an RS list like the above for every single case on this list if that's what it takes to put a stop to this "let's make up random rules as we go along that are different for geese and for guineapigs and for ferrets". Enough of that nonsense. We have an article titles policy for a reason. [[WP:AT]] + [[WP:RS]] > [[WP:ILIKEIT]], and there's no way around that, so let's stop stalling. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 18:07, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
=== is all that fuss really about reading "sheep" in brackets as individual sheep? ===
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