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Freemason?

The Greek Freemasons claim that Meletius was a member.^[1]^[2] which seems to be forbidden by the Orthodox Church.^[3] Can we find better sources for or against this claim? Daask (talk) 17:55, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ ΕΠΙΦΑΝΕΙΣ ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΟΤΕΚΤΟΝΕΣ (in Greek). Grand Lodge of Greece. Archived from the original on 10 February 2009. Retrieved 16 February 2010. Contains the name of the Patriarch in question Meletios Metaxakis, "Alexandrian and Ecumenical Patriarch," listed on its website.
^ "Meletios Metaxakis".
^ "Freemasonry: Official Statement of the Church of Greece (1933)".

Page Move

None of the other Wikipedias refer to him as "Meletius III, IV and II Metaxakis". They either call him Meletius Metaxakis or Meletius IV. The phrasing is cumbersome, and he was never known by this combined title during his lifetime, nor is he referred to this way in any of our sources.Jpbrenna (talk) 13:24, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 24 August 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Mdewman6 (talk) 21:04, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Meletius III, IV and II Metaxakis → Meletius Metaxakis – Wikipedias in other langauges title the article Meletius Metaxakis or Meletius IV from his time as Ecumenical Patriarch, which is equal but primus inter pares to the other orthodox sees, including the other ones that he occupied. The sources either refer to him this way, or they refer to him by the full title when discussing his tenure in each of the sees that he occupied. None of them refer to him by this combined regnal number system, leaving out the names of the sees occupied, while adding in his secular name. This seems to be a creation of the user who moved the page, and while his other edits were helpful, this one is not. Unfortunately, I am not able to revert this without destroying the good edits, and I was unable to move the page to the shortest and most neutral descriptor, because it already exists, with multiple redirects here. Jpbrenna (talk) 14:25, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I apologize for having created the present title. Jpbrenna is right. Meletius Metaxakis is more attested than any of this article's previous names and much simpler to link to. It would also be the closest to the Greek-language article's title. Auteuil-Passy (talk) 04:32, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Translated content

Controversies, including alleged Masonic membership

I have just removed an unsourced assertion about Masonic membership, and editorial comments about him being "infamous" from the lede. It has been alleged by opponents of Meletius that he was a Mason, and apparently a Masonic lodge in Greece claims that he was a member. The Orthodox Church does not approve of Masonry. From this point of view, an Orthodox Christian will not approve of the alleged Masonic membership, especially by an Orthodox hierarch: it is infamous as far as he is concerned; however, it is not infamous as far as a Mason is concerned (assuming it is true -- if it is not, the Mason may very well consider it infamous that someon was not a member of his organization). Because Wikipedia is supposed to be NPOV, we cannot state declarations of infamy, even if we strongly feel that way. If you have a quote where someone else has called Meletius infamous, then by all means quote that -- but I still don't think we ourselves as editors should be making that declaration in the lede: we should be summarising what appears below, and noting that he is "controversial", a more neutral descriptor. Meletius was removed from one of his early posts and evicted from the Holy Land, and he was later deposed from two of his autocephalous sees. He sought and achieved calendrical reforms that are not accepted by a significant number of Orthodox to this very day, including many of the laity and monastics under the joint administration of his old see. All of this is highly relevant and should be in the article. I strongly support re-inserting sourced material about the alleged Masonic membership allegations and other controversies. But we must use neutral descriptors when discussing it here, and refrain from offering personal opinions about it. My plan was to finish translating th Greek material first with its cited sources, and then look for additional sources to expand the English version, including different points of view. If someone has something to add now, I would not be opposed. But the way that this material was inserted was unsourced and not NPOV. --Jpbrenna (talk) 16:08, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ΕΠΙΦΑΝΕΙΣ ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΟΤΕΚΤΟΝΕΣ (in Greek). Grand Lodge of Greece. Archived from the original on 10 February 2009. Retrieved 16 February 2010. Contains the name of the Patriarch in question Meletios Metaxakis, "Alexandrian and Ecumenical Patriarch," listed on its website.

[2] "Meletios Metaxakis".

[3] "Freemasonry: Official Statement of the Church of Greece (1933)".

[1]

[2]

[3]

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-{{WikiProject Greece|class=Stub|importance=Mid|topic=Bio}}
+{{WikiProject Greece|importance=Mid|topic=Bio}}
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+{{WikiProject Christianity|importance=Mid|eastern-orthodoxy=yes|eastern-orthodoxy-importance=Mid}}
-{{WikiProject Biography|living=no|class=Stub|listas=Meletius 04 Of Constantinople, Patriarch}}
+{{WikiProject Biography}}
-{{WikiProject Oriental Orthodoxy |class=Stub |importance=Low}}
+{{WikiProject Oriental Orthodoxy |importance=Low}}
-{{WikiProject Egypt|class=stub|importance=Low}}
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 The Greek Freemasons claim that Meletius was a member.<ref>{{cite web |url= http://www.grandlodge.gr/Famous_gr_home.html |script-title= el:ΕΠΙΦΑΝΕΙΣ ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΟΤΕΚΤΟΝΕΣ |language= Greek |publisher= Grand Lodge of Greece |accessdate= 16 February 2010 |url-status= dead |archiveurl= https://web.archive.org/web/20090210033247/http://grandlodge.gr/Famous_gr_home.html |archivedate= 10 February 2009}} Contains the name of the Patriarch in question Meletios Metaxakis, "Alexandrian and Ecumenical Patriarch," listed on its website.</ref><ref>{{cite web |url= http://orthodoxwiki.org/Meletios_IV_%28Metaxakis%29_of_Constantinople |title= Meletios Metaxakis}}</ref> which seems to be forbidden by the Orthodox Church.<ref>{{cite web |url=http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/masonry.aspx |title= Freemasonry: Official Statement of the Church of Greece (1933)}}</ref> Can we find better sources for or against this claim? [[User:Daask|Daask]] ([[User talk:Daask|talk]]) 17:55, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
+=== References ===
+{{reflist}}
 == Page Move ==
 None of the other Wikipedias refer to him as "Meletius III, IV and II Metaxakis". They either call him Meletius Metaxakis or Meletius IV. The phrasing is cumbersome, and he was never known by this combined title during his lifetime, nor is he referred to this way in any of our sources.[[User:Jpbrenna|Jpbrenna]] ([[User talk:Jpbrenna|talk]]) 13:24, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
 == Requested move 24 August 2021 ==
+<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
-{{requested move/dated|Meletius Metaxakis}}
+:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''
+The result of the move request was: '''moved.''' {{RMpmc}}  [[User:Mdewman6|Mdewman6]] ([[User talk:Mdewman6|talk]]) 21:04, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
+----
 [[:Meletius III, IV and II Metaxakis]] → {{no redirect|Meletius Metaxakis}} – Wikipedias in other langauges title the article Meletius Metaxakis or Meletius IV from his time as Ecumenical Patriarch, which is equal but ''primus inter pares'' to the other orthodox sees, including the other ones that he occupied. The sources either refer to him this way, or they refer to him by the full title when discussing his tenure in each of the sees that he occupied. None of them refer to him by this combined regnal number system, leaving out the names of the sees occupied, while adding in his secular name. This seems to be a creation of the user who moved the page, and while his other edits were helpful, this one is not. Unfortunately, I am not able to revert this without destroying the good edits, and I was unable to move the page to the shortest and most neutral descriptor, because it already exists, with multiple redirects here. [[User:Jpbrenna|Jpbrenna]] ([[User talk:Jpbrenna|talk]]) 14:25, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
+* '''Support'''. I apologize for having created the present title. Jpbrenna is right. Meletius Metaxakis is more attested than any of this article's previous names and much simpler to link to. It would also be the closest to the Greek-language article's title. [[User:Auteuil-Passy|Auteuil-Passy]] ([[User talk:Auteuil-Passy|talk]]) 04:32, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
+<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->
+</div><div style="clear:both;"></div>
 == Translated content ==
 {{Translated|el|Μελέτιος Μεταξάκης}}
+== Controversies, including alleged Masonic membership ==
+I have just removed an unsourced assertion about Masonic membership, and editorial comments about him being "infamous" from the lede. It has been alleged by opponents of Meletius that he was a Mason, and apparently a Masonic lodge in Greece claims that he was a member. The Orthodox Church does not approve of Masonry. From this point of view, an Orthodox Christian will not approve of the alleged Masonic membership, especially by an Orthodox hierarch: it is infamous as far as he is concerned; however, it is not infamous as far as a Mason is concerned (assuming it is true -- if it is not, the Mason may very well consider it infamous that someon was ''not'' a member of his organization). Because Wikipedia is supposed to be NPOV, we cannot state  declarations of infamy, even if we strongly feel that way. If you have a quote where someone else has called Meletius infamous, then by all means quote that -- but I still don't think we ourselves as editors should be making that declaration in the lede: we should be summarising what appears below, and noting that he is "controversial", a more neutral descriptor. Meletius was removed from one of his early posts and evicted from the Holy Land, and he was later deposed from two of his autocephalous sees. He sought and achieved calendrical reforms that are not accepted by a significant number of Orthodox to this very day, including many of the laity and monastics under the joint administration of his old see. All of this is highly relevant and should be in the article. I strongly support re-inserting sourced material about the alleged Masonic membership allegations and other controversies. But we must use neutral descriptors when discussing it here, and refrain from offering personal opinions about it. My plan was to finish translating th Greek material first with its cited sources, and then look for additional sources to expand the English version, including different points of view. If someone has something to add now, I would not be opposed. But the way that this material was inserted was unsourced and not NPOV. --[[User:Jpbrenna|Jpbrenna]] ([[User talk:Jpbrenna|talk]]) 16:08, 4 October 2021 (UTC)