Talk:Gustl Mollath

Every single detail and statement can be checked on the German wikipedia page about this person and case, which is linked in the article. On top of that, this article summarizes shortly what has been widely reported already in the German media, so if someone wishes to double- and triple-check, this can easily be done, the article contains aside of that also a direct link to the page made by the supporters which is detailed and contains original documents. If there are any doubts about any information given here, or if there is a wish to get an exact statement referenced extra, please ask here on the discussion page

Sampler with further links

- links to early findings of further web research results, the link is leading to a dated version of the de.wikipedia.org article discussion just for the case this article paragraph is missing in one of the later versions

- “Legal Scandal in Germany – Whistleblower Imprisoned in Forensics Since Seven Years” - this link to a text entry in English is quite fresh according to search results showing up, it seems to have been published yesterday (at least, according to a search engine)

- Süddeutsche Zeitung (SZ), November 27th, 2012, article in German. "Bayerische Staatsregierung reagiert im Fall Mollath", an article by Mike Szymanski and Olaf Przybilla. Translation of the title: "Bavarian government reacts in the Mollath case" (it's not easy to translate the Staatsregierung, because Bavaria is a so-called "Freistaat" ("Free State of Bavaria"), but to be honest, it's just simply a Land, a Bundesland in Germany. So, it's called "Staatsregierung" in the title, but it refers to a "Land" in Germany, not to a state as it would look like if the words would be translated verbatim) - anyway, Mr. Horst Seehofer from the Bavarian CSU (there is only one CSU, the Bavarian, it's a poltical party, conservative) got active in the case. There might be reasons to observe the results attentively and with due scepticism, since Horst Seehofer is famous as one of the formerly very eager defendants of Guttenberg.

- regarding reactions on the political arena: the Bavarian Pirates decided on November 21st, 2012 to vote for a dismissal of the current Justice Minister in Bavaria, Beate Merk: "Die Mitglieder der Piratenpartei Bayern wünschen sich den Rücktritt von Justizministerin Dr. Beate Merk, dies hat eine Befragung der Mitglieder mit Hilfe der Liquid-Democracy-Software PirateFeedback ergeben." - "The members of the Pirate Party Bavaria call for a resignation of the Justice Minister Dr. Beate Merk, this is the result of a survey processed with the Liquid-Democracy-Software PirateFeedback." - "call for"/"wünschen sich" is not easy to translate, since verbatim would be that they "wish" her to step down, but it's actually a call for a resignation. - an early voice who raised attention at the case Mollath in the Pirate Party Bavaria was Patrick Linnert on November, 15th - Germans were commenting the current development since November 23rd with sentences like "Pirates finally woke up, Greens (Green Party in Germany) and SPD are still in snooze modus and the Left (die Linke in Germany) is sleeping the sleep of the just" (links to the proof can be given, it would be some twitter tweets with a number of retweets) - 2 Pirates visited him on Nov 27th, they write about this visit here

- currently [Nov 27th], a certain comment on a regional newspaper website is getting attention online, hinting at the very high probability of this case having a wider range than just Bavaria

- if anyone absolutely needs to see the Springer medium article [in the WELT], then ok, it's this here, nov 26th

- on November 27th, Heribert Prantl writes in the SZ about the implications of the "Paragraph 63" for the German law §63 StGb (StGB stands for "Strafgesetzbuch", the german criminal code)

- telepolis/heise.de on Nov 28th writes that Greens and SPD are blocking the installation of an investigation committee in the Bavarian parliament. The Freie Wähler (a party in Bavaria, "Free Voters") have presented an assessment by a lawyer from Hamburg that is mentioning, that "dass Mollath in seiner Strafanzeige jedoch nicht nur die Namen und Adressen von 39 Zeugen und tatverdächtigen Anlegern nennt. Hinzu kommen Firmennamen und Decknamen von Schwarzgeldkonten." - "that Mollath mentioned in his filed charges not only the names and addresses of 39 witnesses and suspect investors. Moreover, there are names of companies and code names of black money bank accounts." The Freie Wähler want an "Untersuchungsausschuss" [investigation committe], but they need enough voices for that and according to the article, SPD and Greens behave surprising.

- this was published on Nov 22nd - Augsburger Allgemeine - a lawyer is now filing charges, too: a lawyer filed charges in Munich. The lawyer's office confirmed an article in the Suddeutsche Zeitung about that. He filed in the BY prosecution dept. Munich - unlawful detention, groundless suspicion and assumed further illegal activities, charges directed against all personnel involved in this detention case.

- according to the newspaper "tagesspiegel" on Nov 28th 2012, Beate Merk sees even now still no reasons to rethink her position about this detention case

- the guardian reports about the case on November 28th, 2012: German man locked up over HVB bank allegations may have been telling truth. Gustl Mollath was put in a psychiatric unit for claiming his wife was involved in money-laundering at the Bavarian bank. But seven years on evidence has emerged that could set him free - by Kate Connolly

- Nov 29th. 2012 (the day after the HypoVereinsbank raid, see chapter below.) - among many other media reporting today (there is for example a more readable TS/Tagesspiegel article today, can be linked later) - among many others, the Handelsblatt published an article about the case - HypoVereinsbank: „Whistleblower in der Klapse, Bankster unbehelligt“ and there is a Süddeutsche article that will need to be built into the main article, some lines will have to be quoted, since the case develops now. It's this one: Süddeutsche Zeitung: Mollath wäre unter Auflagen zu neuem Gutachten bereit - and there are some news from the Landtag. nordbayern.de, today, according to the page it was published at 3pm CET Fall Mollath: Landtag verlangt Aufklärung (also for the article)

- superfresh right now (nov 30th) - also needed for the article: Süddeutsche Zeitung: Reaktionen auf Fall Mollath - "Herrn Mollath und Frau Merk umgehend entlassen" - a summarize of readers' reactions

and Gustl Mollath - Merk will Fall Mollath komplett neu aufrollen. Gericht überprüft Mollaths Richter (Süddeutsche, also nov 30th) - quoting (on the same day, Freitag, Nov 30th) the following article of the Nürnberger Nachrichten, visible on nordbayern.de, also Nov 30th: Ein Anruf bei Finanzbehörden stoppte brisanten Vorgang - quotation from that one: "Wie Behördenkreise gegenüber unserer Zeitung berichteten, dauerte es keine drei, vier Wochen, bis die Finanzbeamten das mehrseitige Material abhakten und sich nicht mehr weiter damit beschäftigten. Das habe einen besonderen Grund gehabt, sagen intime Kenner dieser Vorgänge. Es habe einen eindeutigen Anruf aus der Justiz gegeben. Der Mann, also Gustl Mollath, sei nicht klar bei Verstand. Man müsse ihn nicht sonderlich ernst nehmen. Und so geschah es auch. ... In den genannten Behördenkreisen wird der heute pensionierte Richter Otto Brixner als jener Anrufer genannt. Er war es, der Gustl Mollath dann zwei Jahre später aufgrund eines entsprechenden Gutachtens in die Psychiatrie einwies, wo der Nürnberger bis heute sitzt. Während der Verhandlung 2006 hatte Brixner dem damaligen Angeklagten Mollath zum Teil lautstark und drohend verboten, sich über die Schwarzgeld-Geschichte weiter auszulassen." - the fact about the loud shouting judge, shouting in the court at Mollath to finally shut up about these black monies, was a topic in a SZ article linked above, too - there are witnesses. And now it is revealed that this judge called the tax authority and advised them not to take Mollath seriously. So, the investigation by the tax authority was closed quickly, too - in 2004. The tax authority is where Mollath's charges landed after they were ignored and laid ad acta by the Bavarian prosecution department in 2003.

(last highlighted media coverage from Nov 30th 2012) from a number of media reports, taking just 2 last ones, (update: ok, 3) to be built into the article: Bayrischer Rundfunk/ARD.de: Fall Gustl Mollath Justizministerin reagiert auf Druck (BR loses contents really quickly, so it will be needed to observe this one and maybe quote and link it when it's clear this one really will be archived) - tagesschau/ARD Bayerns Justizministerin reagiert auf Druck - Fall Mollath wird neu aufgerollt (hm... so far, did not observe links to the tagesschau break, just sometimes the page looks different when you revisit later due to contents, links to further reports added, can be quoted and linked) - and SPIEGEL Fall Gustl Mollath - Gefangen in weiß-blauem Filz (article by Conny Neumann)

--Zwozwölf1121-3 (talk) 11:29, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

HypoVereinsbank raided on Nov 28th, media reporting on Nov 29th

alright, now the news are rushing in:

- Nov 29th, 2012, 9:15am CET The tagesschau/ARD reports about a "Großrazzia" (big razzia) in the HypoVereinsbank - in the headquarter in Munich and in 12 further buildings.

- Nov 29th, 2012: The SZ article quoted by the tagesschau: SZ: Schlag gegen die HypoVereinsbank

which is also quoted by the SPIEGEL, same day:

- SPIEGEL: Fahnder durchsuchen HypoVereinsbank

plus:

Reuters -- taz -- Frankfurter Rundschau -- derStandard (Austria) -- ... and of course many more.

-

Süddeutsche one day after the media rush re HVB-raid: Nach Razzia bei der Hypo-Vereinsbank: Die Spur führt in die Schweiz (Nov 30th, 2012) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zwozwölf1121-3 (talk • contribs) 10:17, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Questions

Question to wikipedia: does a cathegory "Whistleblower cases" already exist? It should be there, actually. Together with a number of cases that one could think of in this moment. Is there such a cathegory already? If yes, could it be moved there by somebody having the authorization to do that? My trial to find a fitting 3rd cathegory ended up with a bot note in the article history asking whether I am a human being. Think I am, but one that is obviously not yet allowed to click a button but was not informed about that in time.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Zwozwölf1121-3 (talk • contribs) 13:17, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Ahoy User:Zwozwölf1121-3, I just heard about Mollath the first time today from a Facebook posting, and find the situation very interesting. Thank you for putting so much effort into spreading the word to the English wikipedia. You mentioned German wikipedia would autoblock someone if they quoted someone saying "I'll fuck him up"? But there is the situation with the youtube link in the English wikipedia... Have you tried using something like youtu.be? I'm pretty certain an article like this would have been marked for speedy deletion on the German wikipedia before anyone had much chance of filling out the article, so I hope this one will turn into a good one. As for a translation of "Ich mach den fertig", said by somebody in an angry mood, and meaning to neutralize somebody, "I'll fuck his shit up" is a bit too strong, and "I'll mess him up" is maybe a bit weak. 128.237.250.34 (talk) 04:12, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

the link that the bot reverted was a link to a recording from the Bayr. Landtag, Dec 2011. it was there in order to give the source for the time statement in the article sentence. there was and still is no issue with links like that in the German wikipedia, so I was a bit confused when I saw the bot note. yes, let's hope this article can develop further. of course, the other source links will also be format aligned in the next time, as soon as there is some time for it between the news.

but coming back to the youtube question... Germans will start in 2013 to pay 18 EUR per month [currently this is 23 USD p.m.] for the public news network ("Neuer Rundfunkbeitrag"), it will be a payment now regardless of whatever - everybody, meaning now indeed every single household. for some people, this is some money and it still is not absolutely sure whether they will finally have some archive platforms that will make direct linking on pages like wikipedia possible. currently, only some contents land on the "mediathek" (you could translate it as something like "mediadesk") server spaces. lots of contents are sometimes regarded as "news of yesterday, so irrelevant" (an occupational disease in the media, I think). sometimes it is needed to link to an alternative link that has a chance not to turn to a broken link so fast.

--Zwozwölf1121-3 (talk) 07:31, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/gustl-mollath-und-die-hypovereinsbank-weggeraeumt-und-stillgestellt-a-868445.html claims the person who wrote the affidavit was a friend of his ex-wife. The comments in "youtube hbOz5HQWQoM" mention that he is a dentist who was a friend to both of them. 128.237.250.34 (talk) 04:50, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

he is interviewed in the mentioned report mainz (there are two interviews linked in the article, or should be, hope they both still are. one is an interview with Beate Merk, linking to the full version and the 2nd one is to a report about the case itself. the report about the case contains also an interview with the person who signed the affidavit. he is introduced in min. 1:00ff, a friend of the former couple. the affidavit is the topic in min 5:55ff. you will find it when following the link in the External Links section. The quotation itself, for the former wife's sentence referenced in the article (that was quoted in sev. newspapers also), is mentioned in the report in min. 2:40ff. --Zwozwölf1121-3 (talk) 07:21, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

article not an orphan anymore

The article is not an orphan anymore, fresh news today about the big raid in 13 buildings of the HypoVereinsbank added here (the HypoVereinsbank article) - (and here's the link to the archive version in case something unexpected happens to the HypoVereinsbank article). Who could delete the orphan article note from the article? Am I allowed to do that or will the bot say no?

He should be also added to this list, but this can be done only by somebody being more experienced with wiki editing than me. No idea how to use the form yet.

--Zwozwölf1121-3 (talk) 09:55, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Scandalous behavior of German WP editors protecting the criminal actions of Beate Merk

Several edits trying to purvey the truth about this f..ing criminal and corrupt bitch were reverted by German WP Gestapo wankers. You are asking for donations for WP, which is protecting this unbearable person? My f..ing ass!!! WP is a useless piece of %§&/%§!!!!

this topic is now, which is definitely a positive development, widely discussed in the media. So of course, there are many sides now, on de.wiki too, interested in beding this topic into their own desired direction. The most sad part currently is, I'd say, the fact that the article seems to repeat the structural motive of the judgment/sentence 2006 - in order to declare charges referring to black money transfers as nebulous talking by a confused person, you need to make him a confused person. Best way to do so is to highlight personal details that are able to distract from topics that might be dangerous for the people involved in those transfers. Only a detailed investigation will be able to show how many persons who were in fact involved in the transfer cases as clients of the former Mrs. Mollath or the cooperating HVB bank personnel were also involved in the case itself. There is for example a Dr. Wörthmüller who was the director of the forensic dept. in a clinic (Europakanal) - 2004 - and whom the court (judge Brixner) ordered an assessment from. Dr. W. takes three long months to finally decide that there is a conflict of interest, a friend of him being a client of the former Mrs. Mollath. You can find these details on the chronology of the supporters web page, here is just a snap shot of a discussion about that, taken in a time when this part of the dicussion was spotted. Since even on the article discussion page of the german wiki deletings were observed for some time, this snapshot was taken.

In general - well... the German wiki is currently known in the press as a page having some difficulties, indeed (see taz1 and taz2 as an example - there is a paywall on the taz page that you can close when you click on "Nein, jetzt nicht"). Not absolutely sure how the current issues can be solved there, but I spotted in the comments under the taz1 article linked above two direct links that make a bit nervious. It seems indeed that the German wiki currently has a tendency to have no issues with developing to a private Genealogy page for the military nobility. And I think the person who wrote the comment is right - t.h.i.s. personnel really does have own servers for detailed Genealogy pages. And the German history has issues enough with installing assumed thousand years old military history, which is probably what the comment "von Cach bis Cäsar - könnte ein paar Server mehr kosten" seems to be hinting at, but it's just how I read it. On the other hand, I have observed articles about (multi-)cultural topics vanishing so fast that you could think the administrators really invented the time machine already. But - it's just a private view, based on what I have observed and read online.

Her name is Merk (not to be confused with Merkel), I typo-edited your paragaph title line now.

--Zwozwölf1121-3 (talk) 10:56, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

To whom it may concern: stop the rumor mill

Please stop the rumor mill, will you? - As far as I can see it, the quarrel on the talk page of de.WP was about violations of de:WP:BIO (WP:BLP) which by policy and for legal reasons warrant immediate deletion without further discussion. Nothing obscure about that. - And one thing more: contributors on de.WP first had to rebut a request for deletion of the article, put a lot of work into it and are now working on the improvement of quality issues. --46.115.87.108 (talk) 05:00, 11 December 2012 (UTC)