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Kelsey McKinney has received more than her fair share of salacious tips during her tenure as the host of Normal Gossip. One theme that crops up time and time again? Group travel. This week, Lale chats with the podcaster and author of the upcoming book, You Didn’t Hear This From Me, to find out about her own memorable travel escapades, the places she loves for eavesdropping and connecting with strangers, and why she’ll never, ever, go on another bachelorette.
Lale Arikoglu: Hi, there. I'm Lale Arikoglu with another episode of Women Who Travel. Let's admit it, we all gossip and we all share stories about our travel experiences. Some are personal, some are about friends, some are about people we've never set eyes on. We swap anecdotes about characters. We meet on the road and we tell many, many tales.
So to explore, I'm with writer and journalist Kelsey McKinney, who's just launched a new season of her podcast, Normal Gossip. I'm a big, big fan of Normal Gossip. I listen to it all the time. Most recently, a memorable show about bachelorette party as I was cleaning my apartment and I sent it to all my friends. Hi, Kelsey. Welcome I'm going to say to the studio, but we're looking at each other on screens right now.
Kelsey McKinney: Hello, Lale. Thank you for having me.
LA: I have been such a fan, for some time, because who doesn't love gossip and stories about other people's lives that don't affect you? How has your relationship with gossip evolved since it started to be your job?
KM: My relationship with gossip leading up to the creation of Normal Gossip is that I grew up evangelical. I was taught that gossip was a sin. I stopped being religious at some point in my young adulthood and realized that gossip is so much more than I was taught to believe it is. It's not slander, which has its own beautiful word. It's not libel, which has its own word. It's this kind of expansive, massive thing that we all do all the time.
You talking to your mom about what's happening with your cousins is gossip. You talking to your friends about some girl you hate is gossip, but also you talking to your coworkers about someone at work who's maybe dangerous and you should stay away from is also gossip. The definition is so, so, so broad. And so that's kind of how I became infatuated with it as a concept.
And then I started Normal Gossip with my co-creator, Alex Sujong Laughlin, and now I consume gossip all the time and it's all I think about. So my relationship with it has changed in that I am now in possession of maybe more gossip than anyone else in the world, and I think I do think about it a little differently than I used to.
LA: It sounds like for you, you're an appreciator of gossip and a listener and an observer, and you're aware of when gossip can be harmless and also when it can be malintended.
KM: It's so interesting because often what is damaging about gossip is in the eye of the beholder. Like me telling you a story about someone third hand doesn't feel malintentious because we don't know them. We're not intentionally trying to hurt them, and so it feels like nothing.
Obviously to that person it doesn't feel that way. To them it feels very hurtful and awful. And so something we do on the show and that I think about a lot is the anonymization of gossip and how you can remove the actual people that the story is about from the storytelling itself.
LA: There are a lot of memorable and I would argue iconic episodes of Normal Gossip. There's one centered around a 25-person bachelorette weekend that I recently revisited. What is it about group travel that is so ripe for gossip?
KM: I think there are several things. The first thing is that most of the stories that we get sent about group gossip are not close friend groups. It's like we all have one spoke friend in common, the center of the wheel we have in common, but none of us know each other. So a bachelorette trip is like a post-graduation trip that they're all going on.
And I think that is a perfect storm for chaos in the way that a wedding is a perfect storm for chaos, because it's like you all theoretically have something in common, which is loving this one person, but in reality you would never, ever, ever interact with these other people.
They are not people you would choose as your friends. And now you are in close quarters with them in a country that you don't live in, in a language you probably don't speak, trying to navigate what is inherently a stressful interaction and situation with people that you don't like.
LA: Have you experienced any gossip-worthy group trips yourself? Have you been on any?
KM: I've been on many group trips, but none to the level of the problems that happen on the Normal Gossip shows. And I think honestly, part of that is that I did not really have money to travel on group trips until pretty recently in my life. And by that point I had been consuming quite a lot of these stories, and so I had learned many lessons, one of which was do not go on bachelorette trips.
LA: I have done my fair share of bachelorette weekends, and they tell me, well... Now I'm like, should I share this story?
KM: That's always the problem.
LA: They have for the most part been pretty harmonious. And I think the ones that I've gone on, while there are a few people who I don't know, usually there's a core friend group that's on it which can create its own gossip and dramas and tensions.
KM: Sure.
LA: There was one bachelorette I went on where it was in Nashville naturally.
KM: Of course. Of course.
LA: The heart of all bachelorette planning travel. I don't know. The bride wanted it quite like highbrow. We had some nice restaurant reservations, but then we also were like, we're going to go to this dive bar. Things escalated. People were so drunk and we ended up teaming up with a bachelor party.
KM: Oh no!
LA: And bar hopping with them. I was essentially held hostage by one of the men in that group, and then saw out of the corner of my eye that among both of our groups there was some furor taking place, some panic and excitement, which was a wonderful excuse for me to get out this conversation.
KM: Yeah, perfect.
LA: What had happened was a member of our group, who was blackout drunk, had started making out with the groom of the bachelor party, and both groups were screaming at them to save them from themselves and stop.
KM: That is how that kind of weekend is supposed to end.
LA: Yes.
KM: That is fitting and correct where it's like, great, we've all made some bad decisions. Let's wrap this up and go home.
LA: Let's never speak of this again. And then of course, this was at 3:00 a.m. and we all had to be up at 6:00 a.m. to go catch our flights. And we got to the airport and all of our flights have been canceled. And each member of this group got sent to a different part of America.
KM: Perfect. Great.
LA: Which at this point maybe we needed.
KM: Yeah, you had to go out there to recover from spending too much time with each other. You didn't need to be on the same flight.
LA: Actually you're from Dallas and I ended up in the Dallas Airport.
KM: I'm so sorry.
LA: Me and the bride, who will remain anonymous, we sat for eight hours in a Tex-Mex place in an airport.
KM: Great. At least they have margaritas there, but that doesn't really help you when you're hungover, I guess.
LA: No. We just drank the margaritas in silence. I want your hot takes on some group trip advice. Best place to go for a group trip based on the stories you've heard and the worst.
KM: What we get the most stories about are places that people go on planes in general. If you are getting on a plane, that means you are trapping yourself somewhere with other people. So I think if you're trying to avoid a gossip-filled trip, what you want is a place where you have the ability to remove yourself from the situation at any time, which means you are taking a train there or you are driving. So I think what I am advocating for in an anti-gossip trip is a perimeter of 90 miles from where you live.
LA: So essentially like an escape route.
KM: Yes. I'm saying take a weekend trip. Don't go for a week to Morocco with people you don't know.
LA: Don't take over a riad in Marrakech with 25 of your closest friends.
KM: No, do not do that, especially if none of you speak Arabic.
LA: After the break, we all have our nightmare flying stories, but Kelsey has one that is hard to beat. You're back with Women Who Travel.
KM: One thing that I will confess on this podcast as it's a travel podcast is that I do not like to be at the airport early. I usually show up at the airport 15 minutes before boarding starts, which to many people is a nightmare.
LA: I mean, I had that experience recently in Marrakech Airport, but it wasn't intentional and also was layered with a crippling stomach bug that made showing up 15 minutes before boarding and being the last person to get onto the plane. One of, I think, hands down the worst travel experiences of my life.
KM: That's awful. Being sick on a plane is terrible. It's just bad.
LA: But you're doing it voluntarily and I imagine you don't feel like you're about to mess your pants.
KM: Usually.
LA: Usually. At one point during a country-wide tour with her Normal Gossip co-creator, Alex Sujong Laughlin, Kelsey has something of a setback.
KM: I'm flying United. They delay my flight at the time we're supposed to leave. It doesn't start delaying when we're not boarding. At the time we're supposed to leave, they delay it. I'm like, that's weird. I'm also like, this flight is supposed to take off at 5:00 p.m. I have to be at sound check in Chicago at 3:00 p.m. the next day. So I'm like, I don't have a lot of time for this flight to be delayed. Then it gets delayed again and they start telling us things that you don't like to hear like, "We don't have a crew for this plane."
LA: Oh, great. Perfect.
KM: "And we also don't have a pilot."
LA: Oh, so it's a ghost plane.
KM: It's a ghost plane. And I'm like, great. This is so good. I love this. The third time it gets delayed, I go to the desk. I wait in the long line. I listened to people being like, "I have to connect to Sydney from Chicago. Please get me on this plane." And I get to the front and I'm like, "Hey, here's the deal, I have to be on stage at 3:00 p.m. tomorrow. So if this flight is going to get canceled, I need you to tell me right now because I need to drive to Chicago overnight." And she's like, "Can you give me 30 minutes?" And I'm like, "Sure."
LA: Oh God.
KM: I'm on the phone this whole time with the tour managers being like, "Can you get me a car?" They're trying to see if they can get me driven to Chicago, but you can't because black car drivers can only drive for eight hours at a time and then they have to stop.
And the drive to Chicago is 12 hours. So I go back at 30 minutes and I'm like, "Is this plane going to take off?" And she's like, "I really can't tell you. I have no idea." And I'm like, "I need you to tell me." And she's like, "I can't." And I'm like, "Okay. All right. If you were a gambling woman, how much money would you put on this plane taking off?"
LA: I'd say maybe zero.
KM: That's exactly what the gate agent says. She said, "I'd say maybe zero." I'm like, "Great. Thank you."
LA: I've been burned like this before.
KM: I was like, great. I'm leaving. I can't do this. So I'm on the phone. I'm like, I'm leaving. They're like, "We've reserved you a rental car. Go get it." I'm like, okay. As I'm getting off the phone, this mom comes up to me. She has a teenage daughter with her, and she's like, "I heard you on the phone. Are you driving?" And I was like, "Yes. I have to get there tonight. I can't not go to Chicago."
She's like, "Me too. Could I come with you? I don't have a rental car. All the rental cars are booked." And I was like, "Yes, come with me. I'll meet you there. Whatever." We go to the rental car place. At this point, we're accumulating people. It's like a strange little traveling sad girl parade where we've accumulated someone else from the airport. Then I'm standing in line at the rental car, which takes, of course, an hour.
And the girl in front of me is weeping. She is five months pregnant and her ID does not have the same name on it as the car reservation, so they're not going to give it to her. So she joins our caravan. We get an Escalade, this giant car. We go out there. The Escalade has a flat tire. They have to get us another one. At this point, it's like 10 p.m..
LA: And you've got 12 hours of driving ahead of you with this troop, this cast of characters.
KM: With this troop of characters, women I have never met. So we drove all night. It was deranged. And because none of us knew each other, it was like, okay, well, I guess tell us everything that's ever happened to you. Start at the beginning because we all have to stay awake. But I did make it. I got to Chicago at 11:00 AM the next day. I slept for three hours, and then I went on stage.
LA: What on earth did you talk about for 12 hours? Because you were inadvertently suddenly on a group trip essentially.
KM: Yes. A group trip with people I did not know at all.
LA: Which honestly is maybe better than a group trip with people you do know.
KM: That's what I was going to say, is that in some ways it was better because none of these people had ever annoyed me before. So the first time a stranger is going to annoy you is several hours into the trip, whereas your close friend is going to annoy you instantly with something that they do every day.
LA: Oh yeah, you're looking for it.
KM: Exactly. I was really just like, "Tell me everything you've ever done," to all of these women. Where were you born? Who was the first person you kissed? Just start at the beginning and we'll just go through it. I learned a lot about the Myers-Briggs personality test because one of them was very into that.
LA: Wait, I have to ask, did you find out if the plane ever took off?
KM: Okay, thank you for asking. So the plane consistently was getting delayed, obviously. It's getting delayed. This is my least favorite thing that airlines do, I'm sure it's yours too, where they were delaying a flight by 30 minutes and never more. At midnight, we got the alert that it was canceled.
LA: So you could have just stayed for hours.
KM: Yes, for hours. And because this was that one weird week where there was a lot of wildfire smoke from Canada drifting into the East Coast, and so everything was a terrible weird orange, there were no flights out. The next available date they could have booked us was Tuesday and this was a Thursday.
LA: A trip that works where there are no incidents that have a gossip factor. Is it possible? Is a good trip even something that has no gossip? And what constitutes a group that could potentially be functional?
KM: I really think the ideal number of people to be on a group trip is four, which is a very small group trip, but I think that being a normal table size is good. It makes it easier for you to go to restaurants. It makes it easier for you to get reservations. Four people is the normal amount of people to go to a restaurant. Once you get into six or eight, you're in trouble, right?
LA: I agree. And then I've been like, does that even count as a group trip? But it does.
KM: I know. Well, then it's like, are we a family?
LA: And who's the child in this dynamic?
KM: Yes.
LA: I'm already terrified to hear what my friends would say about what role I fulfill.
KM: Don't ask questions that are going to get your feelings hurt. You don't need to know.
LA: I feel like every group trip has a cast of characters and people fall into the roles. What roles do you need people to fill to make the good trip? Is it like you've got the kind of the organizer, but not too much? You've got the person who knows how to make things feel fun when maybe they're not, or maybe that person would be really annoying.
KM: So then it's like the Sex and the City code. You need the fun one, the planner who's uptight, the one who's always going to push you to go to the club when you don't want to, someone who's going to lead you in a direction you maybe don't want to go. And then I guess what does Charlotte do? Whatever Charlotte does.
There's also another type of person who is too loosey-goosey to travel with. And if that person is in charge of your trip, you're doomed. If the person in charge of the travel and planning is like, "We'll just walk in somewhere," and you're a group of more than four, you are absolutely screwed. You have no chance.
LA: And I actually think tangentially related to that is someone who doesn't care about eating.
KM: Oh yes!
LA: You get the people who are like, "We'll just grab something." And I'm like, no, but I'm starving and distraught.
KM: No. That is a person that I don't know because I don't have any friends like that. I've weeded out all the people that are like, "I'm not interested in eating." I'm like, okay, we don't need to be friends anymore. What are we going to do?
LA: I have an ex-boyfriend like that. Weed it out.
KM: What are you supposed to do with someone who doesn't like to eat? All the activities I have planned for us are walk around and look at stuff and eat. So if you don't like the eating, we're not going to have any fun.
LA: Few places are more ripe for conversations with strangers than the dinner table.
KM: When you eat dinner somewhere in a different city that you don't live in and the tables are close together and you end up gabbing with people you don't know, that's a perfect story that endears you to them.
LA: It sounds like you do strike up conversations with strangers when you're traveling.
KM: I love to gab.
LA: How do you get talking to people?
KM: I am not great with foreign languages. I speak Spanish. That's about it. With Spanish, you could kind of make your way in Italy and France, but not well. You're limited in the amount of people that you're able to talk to in Europe. In South America, you're great. If I can talk to someone in the language that they speak, I want to. So I'm like, if I'm somewhere where someone speaks Spanish, I want to gab it up with them.
I want to know what's going on with them. You're catching me at a time where I've traveled recently, which is not always true, but last week I was in Paris and we went to this dinner that was at this little French restaurant. The tables were so close together, they had to move them to get you into the booth. And the woman next to me didn't speak French. Her whole table spoke French.
They were all talking to each other. She spoke Spanish. So I was like, "What's up, babe? We can talk to each other." And that's how I learned that her husband speaks French because his ex-wife lived in Paris. I learned all these things about them.
LA: Oh my God, is this how she's at this rude table that's not including her?
KM: I know. I know. Her own husband talking to other people in French and not her. And I was like, "Well, I'll talk to you."
LA: I have a piece of gossip that was shared on a trip that I was on with some friends. I now tell it on every... Every party I'm at, every group situation, I told a bunch of people at a wedding recently, and it's like gossip from it's like five, six years ago now for people I don't know. I've never met these people. I have no idea who they are. And it's a hit every time. And it's like an icebreaker.
KM: Because it's perfect.
LA: It's perfect. And this obviously is for social icebreaker situations. I can tell the story in about two minutes.
KM: Yes. Oh, and that's perfect.
LA: After the break, when gossiping with strangers is a chance to pick up useful tips and how some of the best gossip stories are about total strangers. Now back with KM of the Normal Gossip Podcast. What do you think the role of gossip can be in traveling? How can gossip be useful?
KM: On a personal level, gossip is the stories that keep you entertained while you are with your friends. It is like I went on a group trip last summer with some of my close friends and I saved stories. I was like, I have things to tell you, but I'm not telling them to you until we arrive, because I want to deploy them as little gifts whenever we are bored. The main part of interaction with gossip with travel is getting advice, figuring out where to be, knowing where to be at what time.
Travel advice. I'm thinking about I went to Pompeii many years ago now, and I had dinner in Naples the night before. And this couple was sitting next to me and they were like, whatever you do, when you go to Pompeii, go to the main entrance. There will be taxi drivers at the front and they'll tell you they're taking you to the main entrance, and then they will drive you to the other side of Pompeii. That's a cool area to be in, but it's not where everything is. And you'll be like, "This is boring."
And then you'll end up at the main entrance and you'll be like, "This is where I should have been all along." Did I listen to those people? No. I ended up at the wrong entrance, and it was great. I mean, I loved Pompeii. I was so infatuated with it. But an hour into it, I was like, there's really not much here until I made it to the right area to be in.
LA: You were like, I thought more survived. Isn't that the whole thing?
KM: Also, I thought that there were mosaics here. And the area I was in, there were no mosaics because it was the poor people area of Pompeii. That's a great example of gossip being useful to you. It's like I listened to them, but I didn't hear them. Had I believed them, paid attention, I would've ended up at the right place. And I think that part of traveling is listening to people around you.
LA: You have a new season coming out.
KM: Yes.
LA: Obviously no spoilers, but is there a piece of travel related gossip you've heard lately that you might want to tease?
KM: Ooh! We do have one travel adjacent gossip coming this season, which is very exciting, which is about a cruise ship and the people who perform on them.
LA: Oh, I am all in.
KM: I have never been on a cruise because it feels like prison to me, but I'm so thrilled with this story and it's so fun because it's like you're trapped together on the ocean. That's awful.
LA: Oh, this sounds like catnip. I am going to be waiting for that episode to come out. Kelsey, this has been so much fun.
KM: I had a blast.
LA: I'm now running through all these other stories that I want to tell you about people's just absolute insanity. If people want to listen to the new season of the podcast, when's it coming out, where can they find it, and where can they find you?
KM: Yeah, thank you. The first episode comes out October 9th. One episode will come out every single week for 10 weeks. And you can find me on every social media, unfortunately, at @McKinneyKelsey. Wait, will you tell me what that two minute story is?
LA: Oh my God, yes. So it was on some group trip and a friend of mine was like, "I just got sent a piece of gossip about..." It was like a friend of a friend who had got engaged.
KM: Oh no, I know what this is.
LA: And I don't know because I was surprised, unless it turns out that we are in enough of the same circles that we both know this story. They got engaged. They'd been with their partner on a weekend away where he had proposed. And on the family group chat, they had... I think you know where this is going.
KM: Keep going.
LA: They had texted a picture of the ring, and it's just her hand with the ring. Everyone's replying saying, "Congratulations. We're so happy for you." It's like all of her family. And then at one point in the thread, this aunt goes, "Honey, it's a live photo." At which point I like to bring out the photo because I have it saved on my phone and have had it for six years. And it's like the picture of the hand with the ring, and then you just see the partner as a joke walk into the frame with his dick out.
KM: Okay, what's incredible about this story is... So I also have a photo on my phone, which is...
LA: Wait, oh my God! I can't believe we both have this.
KM: I mean, I tell you, I have more gossip than everyone in the whole world.
LA: This is amazing.
KM: What's crazy about this story, not to be like in my book, in my book I write about urban legends, this premise that things aren't true because you've heard them from many different people and how that is not true. They are true often, it's just that it's happening to so many people that the versions of it are distinct. So I have seen to date three different live photos.
LA: Brilliant. Brilliant.
KM: The thing is like it's not most girls' dream to see an unanticipated dick pic, but this one is very exciting.
LA: Oh, and I mean, it's like a jump scare that gets such a laugh at the end. It's so good.
KM: Yeah.
LA: Thank you for listening to Women Who Travel. I'm Lale Arikoglu, and you can find me on Instagram @lalehannah. Our engineers are Jake Lummus, James Yost, Vince Fairchild, and Pran Bandi. The show is mixed by Amar Lal at Macrosound. Jude Kampfner of Corporation for Independent Media, and Michelle O'Brien produced this episode. Stephanie Kariuki is our executive producer, and Chris Bannon is Condé Nast's head of Global Audio.