User talk:Mathsci/Archive 23

Sigh

Its the (deserved) three month topic ban on Ayn Rand that persuaded me the route is a good one. No problem with you putting the comment in, deleting it straight away really plays into the hands of those who think you game the system. I've looked at weighing in a couple of times as I do think you are being ganged up on, but the present exchange is poisonous. --Snowded ^TALK 10:33, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I deleted it because I decided it best to remove it. I have replied by email. Mathsci (talk) 12:13, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Occam

Mathsci, I really hate to get involved in this sort of mess, but I'm going to politely ask that you retract your comment about Capt. O being involved in Holocaust denial. True, the blog posting which you cite as your source for your claims about Capt. O is not optimally worded, but to interpret from it that he is a denier is a little too much of a stretch. DS (talk) 22:49, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Ahem, first of all you have incorrectly described what I wrote. On WP users other than me have discussed the precise off-wiki post, which I made no link to (Occam gave the account himself). Secondly, according to an email Maunus sent me, he redacted my post at least twelve hour before you wrote your message.[1] Were you aware of this? Mathsci (talk) 02:19, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Cambridge meetup

Wikipedia:Meetup/Cambridge 7 taking place on 29 May. Hope to see you there. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:04, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Mainstream Science on Intelligence

Your last edit to Mainstream Science on Intelligence has the summary "User:Varoon Arya removed all criticism from previous versions of the article". This diff shows the changes I actually made. --Aryaman (talk) 11:12, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. Before your edit, there was one section marked "controversy." You rewrote the article like a science review, as if it were some objective article, using just the primary source. It was initially a letter to the WSJ drafted by Linda Gotfredson and cosigned by 52 people whom Linda Gottfredson she knew. She subsequently got it published in the journal of which she and some of the other signatories are editors. Some editors who are notable and mainstream, like Flynn and Sternberg, or plenty of other experts like Jencks, were not cosignatories. I have no idea whether this "letter" was discussed in any reliable secondary source. I wouldn't be surprised if it hadn't, since it appears to be an opinion piece, a bit of lobbying. Mathsci (talk) 11:35, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I think normally we'd look for secondary sources. For example I found this discussion quite quickly by Eleanor Armour-Thomas in the Handbook of racial and ethnic minority psychology, ed Guillermo Bernal. I'm sure there are lots of others. Mathsci (talk) 11:53, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm all for improving the article via the introduction material from reliable sources, and I encourage anyone to do so. Yet, you seem to either overlook or willingly ignore the fact that the "Controversy" section you refer to was nothing other than a collection of references to The Bell Curve - not to Mainstream Science on Intelligence. To my knowledge, there is no "controversy" surrounding the publication of Mainstream Science on Intelligence. If one were to write a statement on the role Mainstream Science on Intelligence played in the unfolding of the modern debate surrounding race and intelligence, I certainly would not object. But I don't appreciate the implication of your edit summary, i.e. that I have eliminated "all criticism" from the article in an attempt to whitewash the subject. I first proposed my changes on the talkpage, presenting my rationale, and then waited for a full week before undertaking the edits as per WP:BOLD. If I were still intent on editing the article, I'd request that you reply to the concerns I raised there so we could work out a mutually agreeable solution. As it stands, however, I'd bored to tears with the insinuations and generally fanatical atmosphere surrounding all of these articles, so you're free to do as you please. That goes for all of them. I do request, however, that you leave me out of your future involvement with them. --Aryaman (talk) 12:26, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I don't quite see the point in writing an article by summarising a letter/editorial without giving any context using secondary sources. At the moment I am locating secondary sources for History of the race and intelligence controversy where this will be added, without a detailed description, in connection with the other books and articles written in response to the "Bell Curve". Mathsci (talk) 12:53, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Adding material from secondary sources is, of course, to be encouraged. I do not consider the article "finished" in any way. At the same time, I don't feel obligated to attempt "completion" with every article I edit. Though I generally make it a point to add more material than I remove, and to make sure that the material I introduce is properly sourced, removing substandard material is as far as my involvement with this particular article went. Criticism regarding the lack of secondary sources in the article, while justified, should be directed towards the article, not towards individual editors. Provided you refrain from making those kinds of remarks in your edits, we should be able to prevent our paths from crossing in the future. --Aryaman (talk) 13:33, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Sanctions...

Re Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Comment_by_uninvolved_Mathsci: No, I've never been sanctioned in any way, serious or not. I don't remember even a WP:TROUT. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:15, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Good, that's what I thought :) Mathsci (talk) 00:28, 21 May 2010 (UTC)