demultiplexer

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A first generation leaf is objectively slow, even compared to ICEs. It has some decent low end torque but once it's moving it loses most of its power. When a mini van can do 0-60 in under 7 and you're doing it in 10? Yeah.
In actual traffic? Even here, where in rush hour most cars are electric, the Leaf is still fast. For all practical purposes, you don't need the torque or power of a Leaf, let alone pretty much every other EV.

As it turns out, in real life, there are disappointingly few quarter mile drag races.
 

anuj

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As a fellow former 1.9L Saturn owner I need not say anything else. :rimshot:

But to keep this thread on topic, yar. I was in traffic next to a BMW iX today, and holy crap the guy was gone when the light changed. I don't even think he/she/they was trying to drive fast, either, they're just used to that level of acceleration.
It is an unreasonably fun car for how .. uh .. SUV and otherwise disconnected it is. It's the weirdest thing. I love it so much.
 

Cognac

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As a fellow former 1.9L Saturn owner I need not say anything else. :rimshot:

But to keep this thread on topic, yar. I was in traffic next to a BMW iX today, and holy crap the guy was gone when the light changed. I don't even think he/she/they was trying to drive fast, either, they're just used to that level of acceleration.
You do really get used to it. But I've gotten used to informing people now if there's a lane-merge coming up, or I need to get across in the next lane and it might include a quick bump in speed to get into a good gap. As fun as it is, I don't really do foot-to-the-floor take-offs. There's just so many variables in an urban driving environment.
 

sryan2k1

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As it turns out, in real life, there are disappointingly few quarter mile drag races.
I used to live a mile from here, this is an on ramp to a highway with a 65Mph limit (which means people are really going 75) and there is a stop sign and a 90* turn as you get onto the uphill highway.


It was much more fun on my motorcycle.
 

ProphetM

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Brings back memories of some of the Pasadena Freeway onramps back in the day!

Yes, sryan2k1's tight onramp pales in comparison to that 1940 masterpiece. Several "ramps" have basically no acceleration space at all and begin with a stop sign. You have to floor it from a dead stop. The only freeway in SoCal where most people are staying pretty close to the actual speed limit. 8 miles of expert-level with about 14 interchanges, most of which are weird.
 

KT421

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Is a pure EV safer than a typical hybrid/dino bones powered vehicle?

I am thinking a lower center of gravity is beneficial in some situations but other than that, is safety more about airbags and crumple zones and such?

It depends on the manufacturer. The ID.4 is a tank. Some Tesla's can't open the back doors if the power is off unless you know where the hidden manual release is.

So while the lower center of gravity will make all EVs harder to roll over, and you're not going to have gas leaks or any of that, it's going to vary a lot depending on the car.

 
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yd

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It depends on the manufacturer. The ID.4 is a tank. Some Tesla's can't open the back doors if the power is off unless you know where the hidden manual release is.

So while the lower center of gravity will make all EVs harder to roll over, and you're not going to have gas leaks or any of that, it's going to vary a lot depending on the car.

I would have thought Volvo would be top of list but just a thing I have begun to contemplate.
 

Semi On

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Sure, but design of airbags and crumple zones have a pretty big effect on "a" as far as your body is concerned.

Are those exclusive to one or the other?

Not having the big metal engine in front of the cabin probably impacts crumple zone design and capability quite a bit, but, of course, not all ICEs have an engine there so it’s not inherent to ICE v EV.
 

w00key

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Sure, but design of airbags and crumple zones have a pretty big effect on "a" as far as your body is concerned.
m is my weight, who cares about steel and other crap around me decelerating? You just need to reduce a as much as possible and that's easier in a bigger car than a tiny one, more length usable for deceleration.

In a collision of different mass, the heavier one has far lower acceleration: https://www.physicsclassroom.com/Ph...s/Collision-Carts/Collision-Carts-Interactive

In a 2kg vs 1kg, 5 vs -5 m/s simulation, one ends up with 6.7 m/s dV and other 13.3 m/s dV (20 total). So heavier = safer, for occupants.


So in a collision between a 2000 kg EV and a 900 kg Kia Picanto (1.0L, 63 pk :D), the EV totally wins.

I wish physics works the other way but sadly, it's so much harder to stay unharmed when you're catapulted away in a collision with something heavy. Bus, trucks, even vans (3500kg max) will always win. EVs are sort of in between heavy traffic and cars now.
 

continuum

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Yes, it needs to have 5 stars in every category there before you should even consider it.
Basically this.

Advances in safety (and safety requirements) cumulatively add up, I usually YouTube crash test comparisons between today and 5 years ago whenever friends have questions. Some generations it's especially dramatic...
 
Is a pure EV safer than a typical hybrid/dino bones powered vehicle?

I am thinking a lower center of gravity is beneficial in some situations but other than that, is safety more about airbags and crumple zones and such?
From the (limited) testing results I've seen, the BEV is likely to blow through guardrail which would have contained an equivalent ICEV
 

Bardon

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Basically this.

Advances in safety (and safety requirements) cumulatively add up, I usually YouTube crash test comparisons between today and 5 years ago whenever friends have questions. Some generations it's especially dramatic...
I work for the Dept of Transport here, the crash reports we get tell a very compelling tale of how important safety features are.
 
Since I'm not really super aware of the market anymore - we're going to need a bigger car in the next ~2 years or so. Currently driving a Leaf (with extended range and CCS), but both the limited amount of luggage we can cram in and the near-future possibility of moving and doing a lot of construction makes it inevitable.

What cars are available with >5 seats, decent battery (70+ kWh) that doesn't break the bank? Because afaik, only the e-NV200 7-seater (with extender battery, something I can do myself) is the only thing under €20k second hand. Everything else is €35k+. Or am I missing something new and Chinese that would suit us really well?

Like, if our only option is €35k+, we'd rather just buy a second Leaf or beater e-NV200 and be a 2-car household.
 

chalex

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In a couple of years there should be a large amount of used 3-year old Model Y on the market (YMMV based on country).
Model Y best-selling car in the world and has only been selling world-wide for a couple of years.
If you are in Europe, you can track the numbers produced at the Tesla Berlin factory.
Current floor price for a used Model Y in California is around $25k but check again after Jan 1 2025 and it will probably go down to ~$20k. Not sure how to extrapolate to 2yr from now but surely it will be cheaper then.

In the US, the next most popular car is the Toyota RAV4, what's the equivalent over there?
 
What cars are available with >5 seats, decent battery (70+ kWh) that doesn't break the bank? Because afaik, only the e-NV200 7-seater (with extender battery, something I can do myself) is the only thing under €20k second hand. Everything else is €35k+. Or am I missing something new and Chinese that would suit us really well?

I think you will need to specify where you are to get valid recommendations. Your use of the Euro is the only indicator; is the entire European market the same with regards to availability?
 
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papadage

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Since I'm not really super aware of the market anymore - we're going to need a bigger car in the next ~2 years or so. Currently driving a Leaf (with extended range and CCS), but both the limited amount of luggage we can cram in and the near-future possibility of moving and doing a lot of construction makes it inevitable.

What cars are available with >5 seats, decent battery (70+ kWh) that doesn't break the bank? Because afaik, only the e-NV200 7-seater (with extender battery, something I can do myself) is the only thing under €20k second hand. Everything else is €35k+. Or am I missing something new and Chinese that would suit us really well?

Like, if our only option is €35k+, we'd rather just buy a second Leaf or beater e-NV200 and be a 2-car household.

A used Kia EV9 Light Long Range may be close to that price by then. They are $49,900 new now, so the used price should be down to $30K by then. It's more than you want to spend, but it does have a 100kWh battery and over a 300-mile range. I have a GT-Line now and will not buy it out, but I will look for lightly used Land trim models at the end of my 2-year lease in 20 months or so.

The nice thing about the Light trim level is that it has a bench seat option for the second row. So you can comfortably carry seven people or five comfortably in two rows and have a lot of storage by dropping the third row.
 
I think you will need to specify where you are to get valid recommendations. Your use of the Euro is the only indicator; is the entire European market the same with regards to availability?
Netherlands, but the entire EU is an option.

In a couple of years there should be a large amount of used 3-year old Model Y on the market (YMMV based on country).
Happening right now, but neither car is a 7-seater. Jump seats are not an option. By the way, for any Europeans watching: you can get a model 3 for less than €15k right now. It's going to be the dud generation (2019, high mileage, crap battery) but less than 2 years ago the best thing you could get for that money was a 30kWh Leaf. It's a buyer's market.

A used Kia EV9 Light Long Range may be close to that price by then. They are $49,900 new now, so the used price should be down to $30K by then.

Yeah I'm jealous of US pricing. That's a €69k car for me and in 2 years it's not going to be down to €30k - besides, 30k is still quite steep for me.

It's an excellent car for storing children, though. And I like the e-GMP2 platform.
 

gregatron5

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I'm renting a Mustang Mach-e next week to take the kids to my parents' for Christmas. I expect it to be a better ride than the Q4.

Having ruled out the Q4, I think I've narrowed down what I'm looking for to the Mustang Mach-e (which I'll get an extended drive with) and a Genesis GV60. Unfortunately, there's nowhere I've found to rent a GV60, and a test drive won't give me near the level of experience with it that I will have had with the Q4 or the Mach-e.

There are a couple CPO GV60s near my parents, so I'll be might tempted to just buy one over Christmas. They're 2023s Performance, so basically maxed out. The benefit of buying or leasing new would be NACS and all the perks (concierge, EA charging, etc). Not sure what I want to do here.
 

abernat

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I do love my gv60. It’s just so much fun to drive, and I get a ridiculous kick out of the crystal ball.

There have been a pile of recalls though (one serious, the rest are software updates). And the camera on the door pillar is broken but I use my phone so I don’t really care - it’ll get fixed at the next service. Definitely first model year teething issues but I’d buy another one, hands down.
 
I'm renting a Mustang Mach-e next week to take the kids to my parents' for Christmas. I expect it to be a better ride than the Q4.

Having ruled out the Q4, I think I've narrowed down what I'm looking for to the Mustang Mach-e (which I'll get an extended drive with) and a Genesis GV60. Unfortunately, there's nowhere I've found to rent a GV60, and a test drive won't give me near the level of experience with it that I will have had with the Q4 or the Mach-e.

There are a couple CPO GV60s near my parents, so I'll be might tempted to just buy one over Christmas. They're 2023s Performance, so basically maxed out. The benefit of buying or leasing new would be NACS and all the perks (concierge, EA charging, etc). Not sure what I want to do here.
Depending on the trim you rent, it is worth test driving a GT as they have different suspension.
 

w00key

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An interesting article in Cosmos about how EV battery life may have been underestimated due to the difference between how things are tested in the lab and RL usage patterns.

I'm no expert but it's an interesting read!
Oh cycle life. Yeah that makes sense, plus everyone sets a charge limit anyway when not going on a road trip / vacation, you don't need all 80 kWh of it.

But as far as I can see failures are caused by defects and catastrophic loss of capacity, not gradual and neat, x% per year loss. That only happens when you fuck up cooling a la Leaf gen 1.
 

gregatron5

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Ugh. One of the CPOs I was hoping to look at next week when I'm at my parents' is already gone. I think I prefer the GV60 since it's a little smaller. If there are no CPOs I'd probably have to go new, and the incentives aren't great. Is a 2025 worth it over a 2023? Just called the dealer, and it's super low miles because it was their courtesy car.

Also, the guy I spoke to knew nothing about the rebate for used vehicles. I could search the thread (and will later), but any pointers?
 

Scotttheking

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chalex

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For the used tax credit, the car needs to be sold by a dealer and it needs to be below $25k and it needs to be at least 2 years old and also your income needs to be below a certain level.
If you do qualify for all that, consider waiting until Jan 1 when I think a whole new model year becomes eligible. So the supply of qualified used EVs will increase dramatically.

edit: from the IRS page: "For example, a vehicle purchased in 2023 would need a model year of 2021 or older." So on Jan 1 2025 cars of model year 2023 become eligible. You could probably get a 2023 Audi EV for ~$20k.

So looking at e.g. Carvana, all those used EVs from model year 2023 that are already <$20k will be another $4k cheaper
 
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wallinbl

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For the used tax credit, the car needs to be sold by a dealer and it needs to be below $25k and it needs to be at least 2 years old and also your income needs to be below a certain level.
If you do qualify for all that, consider waiting until Jan 1 when I think a whole new model year becomes eligible. So the supply of qualified used EVs will increase dramatically.
The credits are certain to be a target of the new administration. It is not unheard of for a tax change to be passed in the year it applies to.

The income restrictions are increased on Jan 1, so there's that.
 

elitegimp

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CO has some pretty good state-level incentives*

* Our local Nissan dealer is offering 24-month Leaf lease for $3000 down and $5 / mo
In more ridiculous lease news, there's a Chrysler+Dodge+Ram+Fiat dealer in Denver offering a 500e for $0 down and $0 / mo for 27-months (despite the $0 down number, there's ~$1300 in taxes + there's $400 turn-in fee at the end of the lease). I'm really tempted to go see if my kids will fit in the backseat, though judging from pictures I'm 99% sure neither one would be comfortable behind the driver so it's probably not worth dragging the family 35 miles each way. Shame, I've always thought the 500s were adorable little cars.
 
Also, the guy I spoke to knew nothing about the rebate for used vehicles. I could search the thread (and will later), but any pointers?
Just to add to the thread, the dealer needs to fill out the information for the IRS at their end; if they don't know about it or fill out the appropriate paperwork, you can't do it after the fact. Most dealers I assume are going to roll that credit into the purchase as a discount but even if you want to do it at the end of the year and get it back directly on your taxes yourself, they have to do the IRS form and give you a copy or you won't get it.