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Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hey there,
Here you removed a statement about ethnic cleansing as "provocative". "Provocation" is not in itself a valid reason to remove a statement of fact; the preferable way of handling this would've been to tag the statement with {{cn}}, and only remove it if after a reasonable length of time no evidence would've been produced that corroborate it.
You rarely input WP:edit summaries; please do so more often, and in the case of substantial edits which may be challenged in part (eg. the above), try to split your edit to multiple parts that can be addressed separately.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. LizRead!Talk!13:19, 28 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion
Marcin, if you want to include your camp infos in "Görlitz", please make sure to also lengthen the other parts of the history of the town. As it is now, the history of the city appears as if almost nothing else happened there but prisoner camps. Much more than just the prisoner camps happened in Görlitz in the interbellum. The camp memorial is not considered a notable sight of the town. And the main camp has been in Zgorzelec, so it is doubtable if those infos really belong to "Görlitz" or should rather be included in "Zgorzelec". You would also have to mention the German victims (political opposition, homosexuals and German Jews) of those camps. Also a nice day. Taalmont (talk) 13:09, 25 September 2021 (UTC)Reply
Marcin, i am writing to you on your talk page so that you realize, i wrote something. I did not see the infos about German victims of those camps (political opposition, homosexuals and German Jews). Which sentences did you write about them? Because i was sure there is some regulation to forbid overexaggerated long texts about certain topics, i found the undue weight regulation. The infos about Görlitz as you write them, make it appear like about 30 % prisoner camp infos. I have never seen a history about Görlitz with this overexaggeration on prisoner camps. As you are the one who added those infos first, it were appropriate if you discussed that in the talk section, if there are more people like you, who do not think, those infos are overexaggerated. The normal length about prisoner camps in the histories of Görlitz that i have read, is about one or two sentences without details. Taalmont (talk) 16:44, 4 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
An article you recently created, St. Gertrude's Church, Darłowo, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more in-depth coverage about the subject itself, with citations from reliable, independent sources in order to show it meets WP:GNG. It should have at least three. And please remember that interviews, as primary sources, do not count towards GNG.(?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page.Onel5969TT me13:29, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
An article you recently created, Our Lady of Częstochowa Church, Darłowo, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more in-depth coverage about the subject itself, with citations from reliable, independent sources in order to show it meets WP:GNG. It should have at least three. And please remember that interviews, as primary sources, do not count towards GNG.(?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page.Onel5969TT me13:29, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
Thank you for writing the article! Hopefully you will write more articles. Have a good day!
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Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Thank you for your recent articles, including Poland–Senegal relations, which I read with interest. When you create a new article, can you add the WikiProject assessment templates to the talk of that article? See the talk page of the article I mentioned for an example of what I mean. Usually it is very simple, you just add something like {{WikiProject Keyword}} to the article's talk, with keyword replaced by the associated WikiProject (ex. if it's a biography article, you would use WikiProject Biography; if it's a United States article, you would use WikiProject United States, and so on). You can also use a friendly script for that. You do not have to rate the article if you do not want to, others will do it eventually. Those templates are very useful, as they bring the articles to a WikiProject attention, and allow them to start tracking the articles through Wikipedia:Article alerts and other tools. For example, WikiProject Poland relies on such templates to generate listings such as Article Alerts, Popular Pages, Quality and Importance Matrix and the Cleanup Listing. Thanks to them, WikiProject members are more easily able to defend your work from deletion, or simply help try to improve it further. Feel free to ask me any questions if you'd like more information about using those talk page templates. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here11:12, 12 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
An article you recently created, Korea, Piotrków County, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more in-depth coverage about the subject itself, with citations from reliable, independent sources in order to show it meets WP:GNG. It should have at least three, or a link to an official government source showing it is a legally recognized populated place. This article has zero. And please remember that interviews, as primary sources, do not count towards GNG.(?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page.Onel5969TT me12:42, 28 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
An article you recently created, Korea, Wieluń County, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more in-depth coverage about the subject itself, with citations from reliable, independent sources in order to show it meets WP:GNG. It should have at least three, or a link to an official government source showing it is a legally recognized populated place. This article has zero. And please remember that interviews, as primary sources, do not count towards GNG.(?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page.Onel5969TT me12:43, 28 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
An article you recently created, Korea, Chełmno County, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more in-depth coverage about the subject itself, with citations from reliable, independent sources in order to show it meets WP:GNG. It should have at least three, or a link to an official government source showing it is a legally recognized populated place. This article has zero. And please remember that interviews, as primary sources, do not count towards GNG.(?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page.Onel5969TT me12:47, 28 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
An article you recently created, Plebanka, Więcbork, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more in-depth coverage about the subject itself, with citations from reliable, independent sources in order to show it meets WP:GNG. It should have at least three, or a link to an official government source showing it is a legally recognized populated place. This article has zero. And please remember that interviews, as primary sources, do not count towards GNG.(?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page.Onel5969TT me12:47, 28 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
An article you recently created, Korea, Więcbork, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more in-depth coverage about the subject itself, with citations from reliable, independent sources in order to show it meets WP:GNG. It should have at least three, or a link to an official government source showing it is a legally recognized populated place. This article has zero. And please remember that interviews, as primary sources, do not count towards GNG.(?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page.Onel5969TT me12:48, 28 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hello, Marcin 303. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that Draft:St. Gertrude's Church, Darłowo, a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months may be deleted, so if you wish to retain the page, please edit it again or request that it be moved to your userspace.
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Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hello, Marcin 303. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that Draft:Korea, Więcbork, a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months may be deleted, so if you wish to retain the page, please edit it again or request that it be moved to your userspace.
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Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Johannes Maximilian was:
Please fix the IPA
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Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Plebanka, Więcbork, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hello. I have noticed that you often edit without using an edit summary. Please do your best to always fill in the summary field. This helps your fellow editors use their time more productively, rather than spending it unnecessarily scrutinizing and verifying your work. Even a short summary is better than no summary, and summaries are particularly important for large, complex, or potentially controversial edits. To help yourself remember, you may wish to check the "prompt me when entering a blank edit summary" box in your preferences. Thanks! Renewal6 (talk) 20:39, 25 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Milkk7 was:
This draft's references do not show that the subject qualifies for a Wikipedia article. In summary, the draft needs multiple published sources that are:
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Latest comment: 11 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Korea, Więcbork, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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The article has been assessed as Stub-Class, which is recorded on its talk page. It is commonplace for new articles to start out as stubs and then attain higher grades as they develop over time. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.
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Latest comment: 11 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Korea, Chełmno County, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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Latest comment: 11 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Latest comment: 7 months ago18 comments2 people in discussion
Hello Marcin 303. I noticed that you made some major additions to: Pomerania. There is, however, a problem with the new photos. And also with the lead text. There is now a photo of Gdansk and of Torun. However, according to German terminology, Gdansk is not in Pomerania but in Pomerelia. According to German terminology, Pomerania ends at the Piasnica river. It would be appropriate, to take photos of places which lie in Pomerania proper, and not of those places, which are just Pomeranian according to Polish terminology. Torun is also controversial. All of this should also be explained in the lead. Thank you for reading. Kerlamoon (talk) 17:57, 15 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
The article, in all sections, refers to the entire region of Pomerania, not the narrow German interpretation, so it's consistent. Accordingly, I purposely selected the photos of the main cities of each major subregion, i.e. Gdańsk/Eastern Pomerania and Chełmno Land, Polish Western Pomerania and German Further Pomerania (in the case of the latter I've had to chose between Stralsund and Greifswald, and I chose Stralsund as it's a World Heritage Site, as is Toruń). I also chose two natural landmarks, one for each country, to maintain a 4:2 ratio between the Polish and German parts of the region, as a 3:3 or 5:1 ratio could be perceived as biased or unfair. Marcin 303 (talk) 19:05, 15 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
This is one kind of logic, to include pictures of each disputed or unclear sub-region. The more logical logic would be, to choose just pictures from undisputed parts of Pomerania. As you did it now, the preview picture of Pomerania is Gdansk. However, throughout its history, Gdansk was not regarded as Pomerania by its inhabitants. The Poland Germany ratio is not affected by this, because you can choose photos of other Polish Pomeranian cities. The largest undisputed Pomeranian city is Szczecin. The preview photo should be exchanged with a photo of Stralsund, because i think, that Stralsund is, historically seen, the most important city of Pomerania. The evidence is that there have been built the most churches, one church was the tallest structure in the world at one time around 1500 or so, while there have not been mentionable church buidings in the other Pomeranian cities. Or it should be Szczecin, because it is the largest city. But Stralsund is more beautiful i think. At least in German times, Szczecin was not regarded as very beautiful. And it is unlogical to choose Torun because it is known mostly as a Kuyavian city. I don't know, is the historic old town of Torun on the Kuyavian side of the Vistula or on the Chelmo Land/Kulmerland side? In any case, if there can be chosen photos of regions which are regarded as Pomeranian on both sides, it should be done, don't you think. Kerlamoon (talk) 22:32, 15 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I see that you prefer the German interpretation regardless of the content of the article. Choosing only photos in accordance with the narrow German interpretation excluding major cities like Gdańsk and Toruń would be odd given the content of the article, which covers the entire region.
I chose Gdańsk first because it is the largest and arguably the most famous city in the entire region, and the center of the largest metropolitan area. Stralsund is not even in the top ten most populous cities in the region, nor has it ever been its capital, plus placing a photo from Germany for the preview of an article about a region mostly located in Poland would be strange. The Old Town of Toruń, like most of the city, is located in the Chełmno Land, on the right bank of the Vistula, with only 6 of the city's 24 districts located on the left bank in Kuyavia, including the main railway station and the former Polish Royal Castle of Dybów. Marcin 303 (talk) 22:52, 15 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Maybe the whole article is strange. It treats Pomerania according to the Polish terminology, and doesn't even explain in the lead that there are different perceptions, of what is Pomerania and what is not. And with your photos, you strengthen that impression. Stralsund has more large and historically important churches than any other Pomeranian city. Although there is only a tiny part of Pomerania still in Germany, those are some of the most important parts. Stralsund as only UNESCO city in Pomerania proper, Greifswald with the first and historically only important university in Pomerania (why was it built there?), Rügen, Wolgast, and Usedom. Most Pomeranian islands are in Germany too. Kerlamoon (talk) 23:07, 15 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
There is a section that covers the topic of different interpretations, plus I would like to point out that the German name Pommern was also used in the name of the Intelligenzaktion Pommern, a Nazi German operation aimed at the eradication of Polish intelligentsia in the region of Gdańsk/Eastern Pomerania with Chełmno Land during World War II.
I think it's safe to say that the St. Mary's Basilica in Gdańsk is a quite notable church. Anyway, the importance of individual churches is a subjective matter, depending on various factors, architectural, cultural, religious, administrative, etc. so I suggest to leave this topic.
As for the cities, I explained the choice.
Usedom is only partly located in Germany, yet I still chose Rügen as the largest island. The photo represents the islands of Pomerania, the German part of Pomerania, the natural landmarks of Pomerania and national parks (along with the photo of the Dunes of Łeba). I think that's fair enough. Marcin 303 (talk) 23:47, 15 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I don't think that this is a worthy source. I think when the church in Gdansk was built by Germans as a Protestant church, the builders thought of themselves not being in Pomerania, but in Pomerelia. But Polish does not have a word for Pomerelia. St. Mary's in Gdansk was never one of the tallest churches, and even now, at least two churches in Stralsund are taller and older than the church in Gdansk. And of course, it should be explained in the lead that there are different perceptions. And of course, it would be logical to take a photo in the preview, of a city which is regarded as Pomeranian everywhere, because otherwise, suspicion could arise that the Polish point of view shall be enforced with the article. Kerlamoon (talk) 23:58, 15 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I just gave an example how the term Pommern was also used in regards to Gdańsk/Eastern Pomerania. Here are other examples, i.e. 19th-century German maps, depicting the area including Gdańsk Pomerania as Pomerania: 1 and 2. So this is not just a Polish interpretation.
Please don't drag us into discussions about specifications of churches, etc. And no, the St. Mary's church in Gdańsk was not built as a Protestant church. Marcin 303 (talk) 00:27, 16 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I know that you know, that it would have to be explained in the lead, that there are different perceptions. And i know that you know, that it would indeed be logical to take a photo of an undisputed city at least as preview photo. I'm also sorry to say, that compared to the small size of Pomerania that is part of Germany, relatively much happened there, compared to east of the Oder. Not much happened, between Szczecin and Gdansk, everyone knows it. Stralsund is historically most important, otherwise it wouldn't have more important churches than Szczecin and every other Pomeranian city. It's because of the Strelasund and because of Rügen. Greifswald was second-most important, otherwise there wouldn't be the university. Why is there that old university in that small city anyway? Then there is Wolgast and several other seats of the Pomeranian dukes. And on Rügen and Usedom alone, are more sea baths and piers than between the border and Gdansk. Btw, Schwerin with the fairy tale castle is much more beautiful than any city in Pomerania. And overall, most famous fairy tales and royal houses have their origins in Germany. Germany even has Celtic-founded cities and so many different large cities, which are all much more famous than Gdansk. Even Pachelbel's canon and Mendelssohn's wedding march, the two most often played songs at weddings, are German Wedding March (Mendelssohn), Pachelbel's Canon. Kerlamoon (talk) 00:55, 16 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Please leave it alone. I explained the decision, for each subregion I chose leading cities. I chose one national park each for the Polish and German portions of the region. I showed the coastal areas, chief cities (both coastal and inland), heritage sights, nature, the largest island.
Gdańsk is the largest city in the entire region, the center of its by far largest metropolitan area, and the most recognizable city outside of both Poland and Germany, while Stralsund is, a beautiful and historic, but currently small city. In addition, Rügen and Stralsund with its surroundings were originally not considered part of Pomerania (when Gdańsk was), but were part of the Slavic Duchy of Rügen, and only after its dissolution the area was incorporated into Pomerania, so under the logic that excludes Gdańsk, Stralsund should also be excluded, as it was not considered part of Pomerania in the most narrow possible interpretation.
The topic of various interpretations is too complex to include at the beginning, so there is a section dedicated to it, which would probably need to be reviewed and corrected anyway. You didn't even address the examples I gave of how Gdańsk/Eastern Pomerania was considered part of Pomerania in German terminology.
As for the number of piers, baths, etc. cite some sources, please, if you want to make such claims, because it's hard for me to take your word for granted, seeing how much erroneous claims you've made in this discussion already. And statements such as Not much happened, between Szczecin and Gdansk, everyone knows it. are just ignorant, given the turbulent history of the region, the various ducal capitals, ports, historical figures, etc. So please, leave it alone.
And maybe let's not add information about famous people's births to the Curiosities section. I know you did it in good faith, but it's a quite sizeable region, larger than some countries, and there were far too many famous people, so even if only the most famous were included, the section would still become unnecessarily large. Marcin 303 (talk) 12:33, 16 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yes, indeed, what you wrote reminded me of something i once read about a region "Slavia" and indeed i now found this map which states that Pomerania was around Gdansk, and that there existed something like Slavia. Perhaps you know about it. Kerlamoon (talk) 12:47, 16 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I don't know much about it, but I've come across the term in the past. Plus, I would like to note that on the tombstones of medieval dukes of Gdańsk Pomerania in the Oliwa Cathedral the Latin inscriptions contain the name Pomerania, not Pomerelia (photo). Marcin 303 (talk) 12:56, 16 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yes maybe, but somehow it seems that much isn't quite correct. Because of you, i informed myself now about Pomerania more profoundly, and i found out some things. The page de:Liste von Burgen und Schlössern in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern lists in detail the former Pomeranian ducal residences. And it says, that there were 7 such residences. 4 in Vorpommern and 3 in Poland. However, the article mostly talks about Szczecin, Darlowo and Slupsk only. But the page says, that there were also one in Ludwigsburg, Pudagla, Ueckermünde, and Wolgast. It says: Das Schloss Ludwigsburg befindet sich im Ortsteil Ludwigsburg der Gemeinde Loissin im Landkreis Vorpommern-Greifswald. Es gehört neben dem de:Schloss Ueckermünde und dem de:Stettiner Schloss zu den letzten vorhandenen Renaissancebauten der pommerschen Herzöge und ist als einziges weitgehend im Original erhalten. So it is as only one mostly preserved in its original state. Also the Pudagla one and the Ueckermünde one are still there. All Pomeranian residences are not very impressive, probably because the Duchy of Pomerania ceased to exist quite early. It also seems, that you somehow Polonized the article. After reading the article, it remains unclear if the Duchy of Pomerania and the whole house of Griffin was actually German or Polish. The dukes of Pomerania seem to have had Slavic names, however, i don't think that they spoke Polish. And names like Darlowo were most probably not used during their reigns. Darlowo is most probably a modern invention, a Polonization of an ancient name with Slavic roots. Concerning the museums, you also forgot most interesting things about the German ones, while you included more than in detail the Polish ones. I also found out that Stralsund is the oldest Pomeranian city and i read something about de:Haus Demmin: Der Name Haus Demmin bezeichnet die Ruinen einer pommerschen Fürstenburg (Wasserburg) und eines Herrenhauses südöstlich der Hansestadt Demmin auf einer Insel an der Mündung der Tollense in die Peene. Die Burgruine ist der älteste erhaltene Profanbau Pommerns und gilt als „Wiege“ dieser Region. The last sentence means: The castle ruin is the oldest secular building of Pomerania and is considered as the cradle of this region. Kerlamoon (talk) 00:15, 3 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
The history of Pomerania and its ducal seats is much more complex, and just because the article on the German Wikipedia focuses on the Griffin residences, it does not mean that areas not under the rule of the Griffins were not called Pomerania (hence the tombs in Oliwa Cathedral, Gdańsk). There were various splinter duchies both in Griffin and Sobiesław-ruled territories, and there was a prince-bishopric in the area of Kamień and Koszalin, with some prince-bishops hailing from the region, and others coming from Germany, Poland, Bohemia and even Italy. There are certainly more than three Griffin residences in Poland, for example Szczecinek was a capital of a small splinter duchy in 1368–1390, with only one Duke, Wartislaw V, and there is a castle there. I would presume that the ducal residences are not impressive for another reason, i.e. the fragmentation into multiple small duchies.
Stralsund may not necessarily be the oldest city in Pomerania, but it may have been the first to be formally granted a town charter, which was more of an acknowledgement of the status of the town in many cases, as several places were certainly not just villages or strongholds prior, before any town charter was granted to any place in Central Europe. Surely Szczecin or Wolin were major towns and centers of maritime trade in the 10th century, when Stralsund, before its name was Germanized, was merely a fishing village, if it even existed. By the same logic, Płock or Kraków, for example, were capital cities of medieval Poland, even though they had not yet received town charters because such charters did not yet exist in the region. Kyiv was a major city in Eastern Europe in the Early Middle Ages, but was granted a modern town charter only in 1494.
Regarding museums, I haven't forgotten, I just didn't know. I added a few anyway. There are obviously more in the Polish part, as it is larger, and I also didn't try to list every possible museum, as there are plenty of local regional museums. Probably most towns and cities have some.
As for Demmin, it seems odd to call it the cradle of Pomerania as it lies in an area that was not originally considered part of Pomerania. It was part of the tribal territory of the Circipanes, a Veleti tribe, not Pomeranian tribe. Marcin 303 (talk) 12:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think that all that you write is a bit of, like in German is said "verschwimmen", it comes from "schwimmen" "to swim", and verschwimmen means, that for example, if you pour some orange juice on the surface of the ocean, the juice will slowly "verschwimmen", that means that it swims in different directions until it disappears because it dissolved. What you write maybe partly true, but in general, you write so much, that noone can really control if it is really everything true. For example, there is no reason why Szczecin should be older than Stralsund, because mostly settling happened tendentially from the west, and Stralsund is further west than Szczecin. Secondly, in order to really claim with sources which city is the oldest, it can only be done on the base of the granting city rights certificate. And if you don't have an older Pomeranian city certificate, then it is Stralsund, because you will never be able to doubtless tell which village was the first settlement in the territory. And what is also part of your "Verschwimmungs"- tendency is, that you write so much, and just as a side effect let appear everything that could be related to Germany, as unimportant as possible. So i wonder, still, if the dukes of Pomerania spoke ever Polish, or was it a dialect of another Slavic language, and since when did they speak German. I think the duchy of Pomerania is similar to Mecklenburg, which was also a Slavic dynasty that slowly Germanized itself. And it could indeed be, that on the territory of which is now considered Pomerania, the house of Demmin was the oldest secular building, and i don't think that someone has just made that up, because why should they. Kerlamoon (talk) 13:26, 3 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
You may feel that I am unclear at times, hence your verschwimmen suggestion, but I'm just trying to provide some details that you may not know, to sensitize you to avoid unnecessary assumptions and simplifications of the topic of medieval European history, outside of the borders of the former ancient Roman Empire.
In medieval European history, the granting of town rights is not necessarily indicative of a town's old age. There may be another reason why Stralsund got it first, i.e. town rights gradually came from west to east. That is why, for example, in medieval Poland the first municipal rights were granted in the west. More than 15 towns in western Poland were granted town rights before any town in the more eastern regions of Mazovia and Lesser Poland were granted town rights, even at a time when Kraków in Lesser Poland was the capital city. This is only an indication of where town charters arrived at the time, and the same may have happened in Pomerania.
As for the languages, I don't know to what extent the Slavic languages differed at that time, and I don't know whether there were any differences between dialects in, for example, Rügen and the Słupsk region. Maybe there were various dialects, and various branches of the family spoke various ones, or maybe not. Or maybe it was the other way around, and there were no significant differences between the then Polish, Pomeranian, Czech, etc., and greater differences emerged over time with the existence of separate countries. Sources are scarce and I am not interested in the topic. Of course, there was also Latin. I would assume that the Griffin dynasty was eventually Germanized, at least linguistically, although perhaps not necessarily entirely culturally, as they often used Slavic names until their extinction. I would assume that the Griffin dukes were Germanized later than the dukes of Mecklenburg.
I am not undermining anything by saying this, I am just pointing out that this is not the best way to determine which city is older, and that, in view of the paucity of medieval sources, such discussions may lead to unnecessary errors, and I rather avoid them. Settling did not happen tendentially from the west. The migration of many peoples since prehistoric times has taken place in different directions, for many from east to west. Moreover, this did not necessarily have an impact on the cities, because the population density was very low, many people lived nomadically or in small settlements, and cities grew only in favorable locations, such as at the mouth of a major river, at the intersection of major trade routes, or adjacent to strongholds near rivers, hills, etc. Szczecin was a major port and center of maritime trade by the 10th century, when Stralsund wasn't. And Wolin, now a small town, was bigger than Szczecin. I gave these cities as examples that I know of, not because they are in Poland. And I'm not saying the house in Demmin is not the oldest secular building. I don't know and don't care, honestly. I'm just suggesting that we shouldn't jump to conclusions based on such scant information. Marcin 303 (talk) 14:43, 3 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
The region around which cities are according to you then the cradle of Pomerania again? I think i read somewhere, that at least the cradle of the duchy of Pomerania must be in the now German part of Pomerania because i read something about the monastery in Stolpe an der Peene (Stolpe Abbey) and about Demmin and Usedom being the places where things happened when the first dukes of Pomerania came into existence. Surely, you also haven't yet heard about the Wartislaw Stone (de:Wartislawstein) and the Wartislaw Memorial Church (de:Wartislaw-Gedächtniskirche). This all seems to me like the beginnings of Pomerania are to be located in now German Pomerania. And concerning your Szczecin/Stralsund comparison, i think that Stralund was the by far more important member of the Hanseatic League because it was closer to the open sea than Szczecin. This is also the reason why there are many important old big churches in Stralsund, whereas, i think that the one tall church in Szczecin is one built in the 1890s when there were built hundreds of such churches in the German Empire. Another disadvantage of Polish Pomeranian cities compared to German ones, is that they can't really deal with their Hanseatic past, what means, that while German cities even name themselves Hanseatic cities, the Polish cities are more trying to hide the Hanseatic League component of their past, because this is something that is associated with Germany. The same problem occurrs with everything connected to the Teutonic Knights. Hanseatic League and Teutonic Knights are both Germany associated and would emphasize the fact that those cities were not always Polish. And because of that, you have to write more.... write much, write more... so much about every Polish detail concernig those cities, until the Hanseatic and Teutonic past of those cities gets dissolved in the mass of Polish events, and seems to be just unimportant and very short-lived. The Mecklenburg dynasty was much more successful than the Pomeranians anyway, and they existed much longer than the Griffins. I also read that Greifswald is named so because of the Pomeranian dukes, so no city name in Pomerania could be more Pomeranian than Greifswald. No wonder, that there can be found the oldest Pomeranian university. Kerlamoon (talk) 14:33, 4 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
As I wrote earlier, for example, Demmin (...) was part of the tribal territory of the Circipanes, a Veleti tribe, not Pomeranian tribe. Wartislaw Stone, Wartislaw Memorial Church and Stolpe Abbey were all founded after Wartislaw's death. So apparently there was a duke and a duchy prior. For example, the mention of Pomerania in the Gesta principum Polonorum from the 1110s, preceeds those foundations. As for the Hanseatic League, it's not that Polish cities don't deal with it or try to hide it, it's just not that important. It was a trade organization. And just like current Polish Pomerania was not always Polish-ruled, similarly current German Pomerania was not always German-ruled. Please don't make it a Germany vs Poland issue. In regards to Greifswald, it's just a name. Please try not to jump to unnecessary conclusions. Marcin 303 (talk) 20:21, 12 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
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