Talk:Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany

Place of origin

Perhaps it would be possible to insert where the "Basic Law" was signed: in Villa Rothschild (which was still owned by the Rothschild family at that time). It is therefore called the "cradle of the German constitution and the Federal Republic".

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Rothschild#Geschichte

Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:B40:2258:4C21:8479:5A4A:16BC (talk) 01:30, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Archived talk pages

Talk:Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany/Archive 1 - Talk prior to 2006-12-03

I have taken the liberty to move the Talk page to an archive page so current talk issues do net get cluttered up with past discussions - frankly trying to understand what some of the past discussions were about at all scrambles my brain.

This does of course not meant to imply any past discussion should not be continued if someone wishes to - but it'd more readable to start with a new talk page IMO. - Tschild 22:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

So, what are the remaining disputes?

Which disputes need to be resolved so we can remove the disputed tag? - Tschild 11:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

There aren't any. Go ahead. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 13:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

As nobody else has piped up I have removed the tag. Tschild 07:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Are are the ordinary courts mentioned?

Are the courts that aren't the Bundesverfassungsgericht mentioned in the Basic Law? 220.253.0.37 09:46, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Articles 92 to 103 also contain provisions for the work of the ordinary courts (e.g. rights of the accused). I'll try to expand the article on that matter. Tschild 16:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I have got around to it now. Better late than never Tschild (talk) 10:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Bavaria?

The article notes that the basic law was not approved by Bavaria before it came into force. Did Bavaria approve it later, or did it apply to all the states if a minimum number of them approved? --Jfruh (talk) 02:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

In May 1949 the Bavarian Parliament voted 101 : 63 against the constitution, as it did not strengthen the power of the Federal States. However, if more than 2 thirds of the stated have approved the constitution, Bavaria accepted it to be binding also for Bavaria. (afterwards there was no approval by the Bavarian Parliament, as the Constitution was already in force). Ipwaz2003 15:41, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Grundgesetz and Reunification

"Germany finally reunified when the GDR peacefully joined the West German Federal Republic of Germany"

WRONG: the GDR did not join the Federal Republic, the five states (Länder) Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, Brandenburg, Mecklenburg-Western Pommerania and Thuringia did —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.220.128 (talk) 11:53, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

No, absolutely wrong. The GDR first joined, then it established the new states (Neue Bundesländer). Everything in one legal second. See also: http://bundesrecht.juris.de/einigvtr/art_1.html and Did the 5 states or the GDR join? --Orangerider (talk) 11:27, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Technically, it was the GDR that declared its accession to the Basic Law; its consituent parts joining as five new Länder. Because Article 23 created an 'ever-open-door'; it was constitutionally essential (within the Basic Law) that the declaration of accession should conform fully to the constitutional procedures of the GDR. TomHennell (talk) 16:18, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

referenda

"Unlike the Weimar Constitution, the Basic Law only allows referenda on a single issue: changing borders of the Länder."

I've looked through the wikisource text and cant find any reference to this prohibition - can anyone help me on this? ThxAndrewRT(Talk) 23:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Article 29 (the relevant term is Volksentscheid) in the case of new Länder or border changes among the existing Länder; Article 20 only states that the law shall come from the people through votes and elections, but does not specifically mention referenda, thus there are no referenda, as there is no established provision for them. (A reform to allow referenda was tried to be passed by SPD and Greens some years ago, but failed to gain the necessary 2/3 majority.) —Nightstallion 21:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Your understanding of the article isn't completely correct. While "Wahl" refers to a vote about people (election), the word "Abstimmungen" does refere to votes about some topic (a law, dissolution of parliament). An other German word for "Volksentscheid" although is "Volksabstimmung". Thus Art. 20 doesn't prohibit referenda. It's only the case, that the Basic Law doesn't use them on federal level. If Art. 20 would explicitly prohibit referenda, it would be impossible to change the Basic Law to allow them (since Art. 20 is covered by the eternity clause in Art. 79(3)) and it would be impossible to have referenda in several states (länder) and communities (most german states actually allow referenda about laws and dissolution of parliament, even though they are rarely used). 84.162.90.239 (talk) 22:13, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

And still it is true that on the federal level, the Basic Law, for the federal lewel, allows referenda only in the abovementioned single issue. It would be possible to change that, correct, but that's how it is now. --84.154.83.151 (talk) 11:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The Art. 79 Abs. 3 neither forbids changes nor additions. It forbids the change of the priniciples stated in Art. 1 and 20. This means, you can add anything you like in those two articles, that isn't unconstitutional in itself, but that isn't protected by the eternity clause. Both articles were changed over the time, prominent example would be Art. 20 Abs. 4 GG. Normally a simple law for federal referenda would be enough, because you could stress the meaning of 'Abstimmung' to referenda, meaning it would not be needed to change the basic law for that. To play it safe, they want to go the constitutional route. -88.78.77.247 (talk) 23:44, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Gesetz

(Gesetz is the participle of sitzen which translates directly as to sit, but in German it assumes a wider meaning: to sit, to set or to put).

I suspect the word Gesetz, which also may be translated as "act" or "statute," stems etymologically from the "put down" sense of setzen, i.e. something put down in writing.

Why did the Bavarian Landtag not ratify the Basic Law?

It's interesting that the Constitutional Court is called the Verfassungsgericht even though the Constitution (Basic Law) is not called a Verfassung.

Sca (talk) 19:56, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Some clarificaions: Gesetz is NOT the participle of sitzen, it is a noun derived from sitzen and the translation is "law" or "act" - the thing with put down in writing is correct.

-> The Bavarian Landtag did not ratify the Basic Law because their opinion was, that it concentrates the power too much on the federal site an weakens the competences of the single states. Bavaria in Germany is a little bit what Texas is in the US. If they can't dominate the countries politics they dream of becoming independent.

-> The fact why the Basic Law isn't called a "Verfassung" had a simple reason: the German separation. The ideology of Western Germany was, that it isn't a complete state without the eastern parts and therefore it doesn't need a "constitution" And it was a signal for the eastern part, that the west doesn't enforce the separation by creating a full state. Therefore the Basic Laws Preamble stated, that it is a provisorium until Germany is united again, then a real constitution would be drafted - however the Basic Law has proven itself to be a good constitution, so they kept it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.178.115.14 (talk) 00:25, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Constitution?

The Grundgesetz is not a constitution. It does not define the state, and it does not justify the source of power. That was a major point of criticism when no real constitution was drawn up after the re-unification, although the Grundgesetz was always only meant to be a provisional constitution-ish set of laws. Cush (talk) 16:15, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

The Grundgesetz does perfectly define the state if it uses the term "Bundesrepublik Deutschland", and enumerates explicitly all the länder. The justifying of the source of power is better not usurped by the public power, it belongs to philosophical faculties, and papal encyclicals. --84.154.127.40 (talk) 14:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

What? A definition of state is not meant to define the territory but to define the delegation of power from the people to the institution of state. Why the individual is supposed to transfer sovereignty to the society. Cush (talk) 19:37, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Right. And it is a value of the Basic law that it only defines what is transferred, and not why it is transferred. For the answer to the why, there is a freedom of opinion, so it can be vividly discussed by all men willing to exchange their arguments. That's why I mentioned philosophical faculties and papal encyclicals. --84.154.83.151 (talk) 11:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Means of changing/amending?

How is the basic law changed/amended? Isn't this critical information that should be mentioned in the article? Rami R 20:48, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

harsh criticism

Those few sentences in the "differences from weimar constitution" section don't explain the Basic Law's structure and meaning. For example, the article does not explain or even state the fundamental human rights or that and why they are positioned first in the text. Another example would be the "eternity clause" which exempts its fundamentals from amendments. Some parts of the Basic Law are not discussed at all. To the average german reader, this article does not grasp the fundamentals of the Basic Law at all. I'm sure you can do better. 87.176.200.219 (talk) 18:51, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, the structure with putting the human rights first has some importance, but from a juridical standpoint they are just as valid in Article One as in Article Ninety-nine how the Bavarians have it. The problem of the Weimar constitution was not the structure but Article 48; and even Article 48 would not have been such a problem if it had been kept (it said something about the temporarity of acts justified by it). The eternity clause btw exempts its fundamentals only from amendment via Article 79; via a new constitution (Article 146), non-federalism for example would be possible (federalism and subsidiarity are different matters). - We can't expect that the English wp article on the Basic Law be an expression of German verfassungspatriotism.--91.34.221.236 (talk) 11:17, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

minority government

Is by german constitution opportunity to form minority government?--81.95.168.174 (talk) 11:35, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Even two of them. 1. A majority government loses the majority -- a party leaves a coalition, as in 1982, or a couple of politicians leave a party as in 1972. In this case, the opposition can either take over by "constructive vote of distrust", i. e. by electing a new chancellor of their own, which happened in 1982. Or there is a vote of distrust but it is not constructive, president and chancellor together may dissolve the Diet, which happened in 1972 and was, to speak in a friendly way, actively provoked in 1982 after the government change and in 2005, because it's the only way to dissolve the Diet. Or the government keeps governing; in that case there is even a Basic Law article about a "state of emergency in legislation" by virtue of which the government can legislate with the States Council against the Diet, an oddity for Germans who know that it is always the State Council which makes problems for the government. This hasn't happened yet. 2. After a federal election, two trials of electing a chancellor don't succeed. In that case, a Chancellor is elected by relative majority, and thus can form a minority government - if not the President, by his souvereign decision (one of the rare instances he has such) dissolves the Diet within a week. --91.34.195.195 (talk) 10:17, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

most important part of constitution not quoted

Members of the German Bundestag shall be elected in general, direct, free, equal and secret elections. --Espoo (talk) 23:22, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, there are a lot of people in Germany who'd take your statement as even so much as an offense and then begin, with a voice a religious person would be ashamed of in religious matters as sanctimonious, to recite Article One. (Which btw is a good article.) --91.34.221.236 (talk) 11:02, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Amendment

What is the amendment procedure for the Basic Law? Is there a referendum procedure? It is my understanding the traditional amendment process in Germany has been to simply pass an amendment law. Also, the article says "The denial of referendums in other cases was designed to avoid the kind of populism that allowed the rise of Hitler". I think this is not only POV and OR its wrong. Since when did Hitler hold a referendum? Didn't Hitler use the same amendment process that is used in Modern Germany, ie. a law? Int21h (talk) 12:07, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I just saw above. And I found Article 79: "The Basic law can be amended only by a law which expressly amends or supplements the text thereof." Apart from seeming like a pleonasm, it appears to have been amended 20 times or so, which I think is important. Int21h (talk) 12:31, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

This is no pleonasm. An example: If you want a federal law to establish, say, some principles for primary and secondary schools, you'll find that the Federacy has no power to do so. Consequently, you have to insert a No. xy into one of the Articles 70ff. (technically, it could stand anywhere in the Basic Law) to say that the Federacy may do this, and then enact your law. In the Weimar Republic it would have been different, you would simply issue your law and hope that it gets a two-thirds majority and if it does, there would automatically be added an unseen exception to the Constitution-as-in-force. This was called not a break, but a breakthrough of the Constitution. As an example, Hitler's Enabling Act did not change the text of the constitution.--91.34.226.249 (talk) 21:46, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Former constitutions

Hey guys! Today I asked several history teachers at my school and they told me, that Hitler legally and theoretically ruled with the Weimarer Constitution till 1945. Can someone back them up or disprove their "knowledge"? ems 217.50.225.127 (talk) 17:25, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

This is round-about the leading opinion of German history school teachers. It is somehow true; yet the emphasis put on it is my view, a big one.

After his failed putsch, Hitler chose to takeover power by "legal" means. When he was called to witness upon some trial, he confirmed so under oath ("then, in a legal way, there shall also some heads be rolling"). It is true that the Weimar Constitution never was as such abolished. However, just about any article was amended without textual amending (no hyperbole; see [1]).

As to whether Hitler really, and not only in his own opinion, legally took-over power, I think the answer can be said to be no. The Federal Constitutional Court hints so in the Reichskonkordat Decision (though it judges itself without authority to pronounce on the matter.) It is a fact that

• President Hindenburg named General Blomberg Minister of Defence without proposal by any Chancellor, contrary to the Constitution (though that was a minor technicality that actually was meant to chain Hitler, but failed to do so because Blomberg did not chain him),
• Hitler in February 1933 explicitly defied a Supreme Court decision (Chancellor Papen had put replaced Prussia's government into the hands of federal appointees; the Supreme Court had judged that at least Prussias identity was to be represented by the deposed government, even though the executive power remained with the Federacy; now Hitler ordered explicitly that "the faculties the deposed government has are given to the federal appointees),
• Hitler in February 1933 had Hindenburg enact two Necessity Decrees to strip basic laws without any intention of temporarity and, in the Reichstag Fire Decree case, even without any sort of restriction, both unconstitutional things,
• Hitler unconstitutionally expelled the Communists and some Social Democrats from the Parliament, even having their votes uncounted for the two-thirds majority barrier,
• Hitler forced the Parliament with gunpower (the SA and SS had been marched to the front of the provisionary Reichstag) to pass the Enabling Law (the idea of arresting every member of Parliament from other parties actually was discussed, and dismissed solely for publicity reasons),

and so on and so on.--91.34.249.41 (talk) 15:02, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Some things about basic law

The important reason why the basic law is not a constitution and only a provisional thing is that the germans (which create the basic law) didn´t want to create a new state. The man carlo schmidt said that we have no reason to create a western germany because the german empire exists in borders from 1937 but the german empire is not able to act. (Borders from 1937 because of the potsdam conference from 1945) The capitulation on 8. may 1945 was only a military. After a few weeks later the german goverment was fired by the allies and so germany had no organization. Then the allies and not we create german countries. We germans don´t need countries because we are a unit. Since 1934 we were no longer a federal state we were a state like france. In german history the many little german countries was a big problem for our nationality and that was the reason for allies to create new one. The art. 23 wasn´t for reunification, because it was deleted a few days before reunification. http://lexetius.com/GG/23#2 Art. 23 is the range of validity of the basic law. The allies didn´t give us our sovereignty back. That was an other important reason for only a basic law. You can see for example art. 139 this art. is the link to the allies occupation statute. Compare art. 139 with "Besatzungsstatut" under 7. the word "Rechtsvorschriften". http://www.konrad-adenauer.de/index.php?msg=4521 — Preceding unsigned comment added by German-deutsch (talk • contribs) 17:19, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

You're mistaken. The entity known as Deutsches Reich between 1871 and 1945 is quite able to act, having now the name of Bundesrepublik Deutschland (see the respective Federal Constitutional Court decisions of the 1970s). The Basic Law was enacted with the claim to speak on behalf of the German People* "having also acted for those to whom participation was not possible". No allies there; no separation indeed either, but reorganization. It was meant to be put into force in these lands and this has taken place. [*No, this does not make necessary a referendum. A referendum is the voice of the majority of the people on a given question; a law by representatives is the voice of the representatives; to make either an act of the People as such, some philosophy is needed, and this philosophy does exist.] The little German countries by the way were no problem for our nationality, but only because they were of other spirit than those who, for a time, won in history (i. e. 19th century liberals); federalism, subsidiarity and organic government, as far as even we still have it, is a thing to be proud of. Nazism showed itself as thoroughly un-German (it has been called so; e. g. by Thomas Mann) when it abolished federalism.--91.34.249.41 (talk) 15:11, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

'Right to resist' isnt mentioned here

Theres an article i8n the GG that says (from head): "The people of germany are allowed to resist any power which tries to change the fundermental laws of this constitution" And its widely accepted to interpret 'resist' very strongly here. Like: "If anyone wants to play Führer ever again, feel free to burn him at the stake, we encourage you to do so!" might be an intresting point, dont you think? 83.216.242.84 (talk) 04:21, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

That's 20(4), as quoted from http://www.bundestag.de/bundestag/aufgaben/rechtsgrundlagen/grundgesetz/gg_02.html: "Gegen jeden, der es unternimmt, diese Ordnung zu beseitigen, haben alle Deutschen das Recht zum Widerstand, wenn andere Abhilfe nicht möglich ist." In English: "Against anyone who undertakes it to remove this order of things, all Germans have the right to resistance, if other relief is not possible." I, too, was astonished to not see it included in the article. DrTemp (talk) 06:32, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Constitution of Germany

It is no Constitution! A Constitution is elected, the "Grundgesetz" was set by some not elected germans and the Aliets! Thats even why the german fathers of the Grundgesetz called it Basic Law! But it is one of the best democratic Laws and i am proud to be under this law! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.198.182.35 (talk) 20:35, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

It is no Constitution which is apparently why the Court that judges under it is called Constitutional Court.--91.34.253.134 (talk) 13:26, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

The Danish Constitution is also called "Grundlov" = "Grundgesetz" = "Basic Law", and nobody would say it is not a constitution because of the name! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DF:3BC5:9A00:69E1:2A09:668C:5D9B (talk) 02:06, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Fundamental rights in the German Constitution

The Fundamental rights in the German Constitution are not mentioned in the article, nor is there even a link to the article about these rights. While most things the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany has to deal with are connected to that part of the Basic Law, they are only somehow indirectly mentioned in the part of the article about the Constitutional Court by some examples, but I thik this part of the article is hard to understand, if you don't know, that the Fundamental Rights are part of the Basic Law. Because the authors of the Basic Law ascribed a great importance to that Fundamental Rights they put them in the beginning and especially protected it (see Art. 20 and Art. 79). To my experience these Fundamental Rights, especially Art. 1, are the best known part of the Basic Law to Germans, and Germans would call them the most importand part of the law. --Kleiner Tümmler (talk) 21:48, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

 Done I have tried to satisfy your request. --Tri-l (talk) 09:52, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

referendum

I have deleted the following sentence:

'These other votes – the words are to be understood meaning votes on legislative issues – are, by now, common practice on the level of the Länder. '

For the following reasons: Referendums on the lecel of the länder are not derived from federal constitutional law! The länder have thei own constitutions. In case of Baria or Hesse already dating back to 1946. Whether there are referendums within a land is merely a matetr of the constitution of that land itself. The Grundgesetz is not relevant here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.248.1.6 (talk) 20:52, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I have reverted your edit. If you are editing an article you have to use a correct English syntax and grammatics. The above sentence you quoted is absolutely right. Referendums on federal level in Germany are not provided by the constitution, on the level of the states they are partly in practice. There is no location called Baria in Germany AFAIR, Bari maybe an island or a region or a city anywhere in the world, don't know exactly where, Italy or so what. Tri-l (talk) 05:45, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Art. 20 deals with the basic principle of exercising state power, and I think the words "alle Staatsgewalt" (all public power) are to be taken as referring to the länder also, by way of higher law. In this sense, referenda are not only principally thought of by the Basic Law (undisputable, Art. 20), but also provided. Though not by the Basic Law and not on federal matters. I actually think that, if the words "und Abstimmungen" were lacking in Art. 20, länder constitutional provisions on referenda would be struck down as unconstitutional (they provide, after all, a public power other than by elections).--2.236.198.248 (talk) 21:57, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

In Germany at the national level there are only two forms of plebiscites which were used still exceedingly seldom or never until today. So the fundamental law provides a vote by the people in case of the reorganisation of the federal territory which is carried out, however, only in the affected area (in the meanwhile historical and explicitly named case of the fusion of Württemberg and Baden). Besides, a nationwide popular vote is intended in the case of the removal of the fundamental law by a regular constitution through all the Germans. Thus for the common politics on federal level the plebiscite is practically insignificant in Germany.

In the states, Länder, or the respective local authority districts (communes) exist with Peoples Initiative (Volksinitiative), Peoples Demand (Volksbegehren), and Popular Vote (Volksentscheid), or respectively Civil Demand (Bürgerbegehren), and Civil Decision (Bürgerentscheid) basically a huge number of plebiscitary elements. Though their use and importance strongly differs. Thus more civil demands and civil decisions take place in Bavaria than in the whole remaining federal territory together by which the municipal politics is influenced relatively strongly by plebiscites in this federal state. In some other states on the other hand the regulations are so restrictive that plebiscites can not come practically to the use and that's why they play also no role in the politics. -- Tri-l (talk) 13:43, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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==Comment== Hi, Sparks1979! thank you for your introduction on your personal page, I assume the lines below "I would like to ask this whole article to be checked through....." are yours. I am German by birth and without particular tendencies and proficiency, yet I am sure I`ll be able to convince you of the necessity of the presence of the part 1.5 in the article “the most peculiarity of Basic Law” Eugene 85.178.239.203 17:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC) ===The main thought of Wikipedia=== The main thought of Wikipedia is the imparting of information worth knowing that´s why the part 1.5 of the article “Basic Law for FRG” belongs in it. The principle in Article 1(2) binds all Germans without exception and imposes them the duty to resist any person ( not to mention association of persons as a political party) seeking to undermine or to abolish that fixed constitutional order by all legal means without exception. Eugene 85.178.241.252 19:29, 20 October 2006 (UTC) == Accuracy and neutrality == Accuracy and neutrality are disputed, needs fixing. Kusma (討論) 14:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

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