Talk:Charles the Bold

Charles the Bold is currently a Royalty, nobility and heraldry good article nominee. Nominated by Amir Ghandi (talk) at 07:00, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

An editor has placed this article on hold to allow improvements to be made to satisfy the good article criteria. Recommendations have been left on the review page, and editors have seven days to address these issues. Improvements made in this period will influence the reviewer's decision whether or not to list the article as a good article.

Short description: Duke of Burgundy from 1467 to 1477

Charles the Bold (final version) received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which on 20 October 2024 was archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Charles the Bold (final version) received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which on 31 May 2024 was archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

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This article was copy edited by PacificDepths, a member of the Guild of Copy Editors, on 3 August 2024.Guild of Copy EditorsWikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsTemplate:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsGuild of Copy Editors

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Sources and stuff

More sources

Biographie universelle ancienne et moderne: Histoire par ordre alphabétique de la vie publique et privée de tous les hommes, vol V 56-562.
Boehm, L., 'Burgundy and the Empire in the Reign of Charles the Bold', The International History Review (1979)
Brown, A.,'Bruges and the Burgundian ‘Theatre-state’: Charles the Bold and Our Lady of the Snow', History (1999)
Evans, J., 'The Garter of Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy', The Antiquaries Journal (1952)
Mantel, G., The Encyclopedia of Diplomacy: Charles the Bold (1433-77)
Smith, J., 'Portable Propaganda—Tapestries as Princely Metaphors at the Courts of Philip the Good and Charles the Bold', Art Journal (1989).
Walsh, R., Charles the Bold and Italy 1467-1477: Politics and Personnel
Weightmann, Margaret of York, Duchess of Burgundy, 1446-1503

Mine Puttnam and Vaughan to a far greater degreee than they are used already. Lose the old PD sources, and while biographies of Charles' contemporary rulers might be useful for gleaning material—particularly international relations—Charles Ross's or Michael Hicks's Edward IV would be more useful than JA-H. By that token, also look at James Cleugh's 1970 Chant Royal: The Life of King Louis XI, and find something about Fred III. Ceoil, have you done something on either his tomb or book of hours? And Johnbod, was it Max Ernst who did a curious thing with Jean Hatchett and Charles the Bold? If so, we can add that to 'Cultural depictions' section and get rid of some of those books. SN54129 15:10, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have Vaughan at hand but it's probably available at archives.org. Victoria (tk) 15:38, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have Bart van Loo, The Bugundians: A Vanished Empire, 2021, Head of Zeus, ISBN 9781789543438 (a lucky charity shop buy) with 65 pages on Charles' reign. He's not an academic historian though. Sorry "Max Ernst who did a curious thing with Jean Hatchett and Charles the Bold" rings no bell with me (or Google) - ok this. It is Jeanne Hachette, not "Jean". Johnbod (talk) 22:26, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That produced the moronicwiki gem "She is currently known for an act of heroism on 27 June 1472, when she prevented the capture of Beauvais by the troops of Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy." Johnbod (talk) 01:55, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks both! Johnbod, I've never heard of 'moronicwiki' before (but then, IIRC, you were also the one who introduced me to 'cite banditry' too!), but thanks for listing that source here. I'm going to dig out a few in French too, there must be plenty. Yes, that collage was the Ernst piece I was thinking of, although on a re-read, I see that my original comment (Max Ernst... did a curious thing with Jean Hatchett and Charles the Bold) has a certain innuendo to it, fnarr fnarr! Thanks again, SN54129 14:34, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Copy edit questions

> Charles was around this age when he began partaking in public affairs of his father's duchy.

Is this the age of 8 when Philip appointed d'Auxy as Charles's guardian? Or is this in 1445 (age 12) when Charles accompanied Philip to Holland and Zealand?

He was born in 1433, so the latter.

> During the actual journey, Charles managed to break sixteen or eighteen lances and received prizes from two princesses.

What is the "actual journey"? Is this an actual tourney and not the practice tourney?

Yes, in that 'journey' is a mistransliteration for 'tourney'

> He returned to his lines before getting captured.

In the Battle of Montlhéry, Charles was not captured, correct? 🌊PacificDepths^talk|contrib 18:58, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No he wasn't; does the article say so? I couldn't see it. Thanks for addressing the copy edit PacificDepths, much appreciated! ——Serial Number 54129 20:21, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The prior wording was unclear. I tried to make it more clear.

About about the other questions about "actual journey" and Charles's age when he began to engage in public affairs? 🌊PacificDepths^talk|contrib 05:49, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@PacificDepths: Indeed, I answered inline. ——Serial Number 54129 10:57, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello @PacificDepths, thanks for all the work! Regarding your questions, 1. the actual tourney is the correct wording. 2. The source itself does not actually specify his age. It says 'tender age' between 1440 and 1453. Amir Ghandi (talk) 09:33, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello User:Amir Ghandi and User:Serial Number 54129: I believe I have finished my copy edits. Please review for correctness. Some general thoughts:

The article states that Charles struggled for power before he became Duke. There could be more examples.
I'm confused about the enmity between Charles and de Croÿ.
Background is still too long and can be shortened.

🌊PacificDepths^talk|contrib 05:46, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, @PacificDepths, can you please elaborate on your second point? What is confusing about the Charles-de Croy rivalry? Regarding your first point, I don't think there's anything else we can add. And unfortunately, I must disagree with you on the Background section. See Henry IV, whose background was twice as long as this article. Amir Ghandi (talk) 20:14, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What was the cause of the feud between Charles and Philip de Croÿ? Was it a struggle for power in Philip the Good's court? Was it a suspicion of motives?

> Charles resented de Croÿ, whom he considered at fault for his father's humiliation by the king of France, as Charles VIII had reportedly bribed de Croÿ numerous times.

When was Philip the Good humiliated? And is Charles VIII correct? If it's the French monarch contemporaneous with Philip the Good, would it be Charles VII? I might rewrite this as:

> Charles suspected that Philip de Croÿ accepted money from Charles VII to undermine Philip the Good.

For other points, that's fine. 🌊PacificDepths^talk|contrib 00:50, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good amendment. Done. Amir Ghandi (talk) 11:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bart van Loo

Hello, @User talk:Serial Number 54129, with the copyediting done, I was thinking to nominate the article for FAC, though I have one concern. It seems Bart van Loo's book, The Burgundians: A Vanished Empire is not considered a reliable source. Will I have to delete this source all together? Amir Ghandi (talk) 11:06, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Seems" how? I'd think it is reliable for facts, but rather opinionated. Johnbod (talk) 12:56, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It might be my misunderstanding but it seems this discussion deems the source as unacademic. Amir Ghandi (talk) 13:21, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well it isn't an academic work for sure - nor are others you use. Quoting from that discussion "...a topic with more than its fair share of Serious Academic Commentary. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!)". The trouble is, Van Loo's 8 page introductory note to his 20 page bibliography lists 4 biographies in French and 2 in German from recent(ish) years. None of these are used here (though some articles etc by the same authors are). I don't think the copyediting is done btw - not to FAC standards. The English needs attention. Johnbod (talk) 13:47, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Of the books, I can only find two others (Potter and Querengässer) that I might be slightly leery of—but not badly so, and among everything else, that's pretty insignificant. There is no major problem with Van Loo as long as he's not given weight over, say, Vaughan. And the articles and 'paedias used are all high quality. I agree with JB wrt the copyedit. It's a great improvement, but not so great it cannot be further improved. SerialNumber54129 14:38, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious

Hey, @User:Cplakidas, here is a direct quote from the source regarding the Trebizond claim: "Charles the Bold’s meeting with the despot of the Morea in October I475 was not without significance. As we shall see in a moment, it was quickly followed by talk of transferring to the duke of Burgundv the titles to Constantinople and Trebizond: and, for the present discussion, it suffices to say that, with the demise of other claimants from the lines of Palaiologos and Comnenos, the rights to the empires of both Constantinople and Trebizond now reposed with the descendants of Thomas Palaiologos (died 1465). the last effective despot of the Morea and brother of the last emperor of Constantinople, Constantine IX. Clearly the despot who visited Charles the Bold was a son of Thomas Palaiologos, but which of the two it was, Andrew or Manuel, is difficult to say" Amir Ghandi (talk) 11:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Amir Ghandi, that sounds more plausible, as Trebizond alone is odd for a Palaiologos. I had a look at the article on Andreas Palaiologos, and there the question as to who offered what is actually answered: "By 1475, at the age of 22, Andreas had begun offering to sell his claims to the imperial thrones of both Constantinople and Trebizond (the Empire of Trebizond being a Byzantine successor state which lasted until 1461), writing letters to several rulers, including the King of Naples (Ferdinand I) and possibly the Duke of Milan (Galeazzo Maria Sforza) and the Duke of Burgundy (Charles)." I would suggest taking up the reference used there into the article on Charles. Constantine ✍ 15:17, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done, thanks for the suggestion. I went ahead and removed the tag Amir Ghandi (talk) 17:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Charles the Bold/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Amir Ghandi (talk · contribs) 07:00, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Borsoka (talk · contribs) 09:25, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it well written?
A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?
A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):

C. It contains no original research:

D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
Is it neutral?
It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
Is it stable?
It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:

Comments

...in the city of Dijon Specify that it was the capital of the Duchy.
Link Philipp the Bold and Isabella of Portugal when they are first mentioned. Perhaps you can also mention that she was his third wife.
Perhaps you could introduce his father as the ruler of several duchies and counties, mentioning that some of them were located in France, others in the Holy Roman Empire.
...within days from his birth Delete (no actual information).
...and made his son a knight of the Golden Fleece, a knightly order created by him in 1430. The infant also became the count of Charolais, a title given to the heirs of the dukes of Burgundy. 1. I think the last part of the first sentence and the first part of the second sentence could be consolidated, and info about the Order of the Golden Fleece and the county could presented in a separate sentence. Please also clarify that Charolais was located in France.
Introduce Count Charles I of Nevers and Antoine I de Croÿ (perhaps as two aristocrats/noblemen..).
...who was Philip the Good's stepson from his second wife, Bonne of Artois Why not past perfect? From? Link Bonne.
...the young Charles... Young? He was about one year old.
The Duchess and her son descended the mountains in April 1435, after the plague had receded. Afterwards, they travelled to Paris to join Philip the Good. Consolidate the two sentences only leaving the most relevant pieces information (She brought him to Paris after the plague).
En route, they passed through Bruges.... In 1436, when Isabella and her entourage were to leave the city... The second sentence suggests me that they stayed in Bruges for several days/weeks/months.
...forcefully stopped and arrested... One verb is enough.

Now, I stop the review and suggest you to seek a thorough and comprehensive copyedit at the guild of copy editors because the prose could be improved. Please ping me when the copyedit was completed. Borsoka (talk) 09:55, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Borsoka But the article has already been through copyeditting by someone from the guild. Amir Ghandi (talk) Amir Ghandi (talk) 10:01, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I think a new copyedit is needed because it is hard to understand. I guess that some prose could be deleted and some sentences could be consolidated. Borsoka (talk) 10:02, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay then. I'll enlist this in GOCE Amir Ghandi (talk) 10:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: @Borsoka and Amir Ghandi: Where are we regarding the status of this article? It's been a while since this review was updated and with the GANR backlog drive coming up I want to make sure all potential articles are able to be included. IntentionallyDense ^(Contribs) 23:04, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]