Talk:Commercial astronaut

SpaceX Dragon crew

What about the astronauts of the Crew Dragon Demo-2 mission? Should they count as commercial astronauts too and be added to the list? Contrary to Charlie Walker, they fly on a spacecraft concepted and built actually by a non-governmental firm. 212.186.15.63 (talk) 08:24, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

No, the criteria is not just that they flew such a vehicle, "privately funded" refers to who pays for their training and mission. In the US, there are two bodies who license a mission: NASA and the FAA.

The Demo-2 astronauts represent NASA and it's a NASA-sponsored flight, so they are not commercial astronauts. Chris Ferguson wouldn't be one either when his Boeing CFT flies, even though he is representing Boeing and not NASA (he wears a Boeing patch where his crewmates where a NASA patch), because he's flying a NASA-sponsored mission (like Charlie Walker did, though he was a payload specialist). The term "Commercial Astronaut" is specifically for those who meet the FAA criteria: FAA Commercial "Astronaut Wings are given to flight crew who have demonstrated a safe flight to and return from space on an FAA/AST licensed mission." -- Wizardimps (talk) 14:23, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

AxiomSpace AX-1 and Inspiration4

Some editors have been making these private spaceflight participants "commercial astronauts" in these sets of articles. But they will not be professional astronauts, they will just be making single jaunts, as pay-for astronauts, not continuing space careers. When these two missions fly in 2021, editors should look out for them being added to this list of astronauts, where they are not professional astronauts (except the commander of AX-1). Most of them will be going through SpaceX's astronaut training. I suppose this would be the difference between holding a degree and practicing in a career. (ie. a professional bus driver is more than just having an endorsement/rating on a driver's license) -- 67.70.27.246 (talk) 22:43, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

The people who fly these missions will not be commercial astronauts, they are basically space tourists. Whether the media understands the difference and cares to pass that difference along to their readers/listeners. NASA has created the term "Private Astronaut" for those paying a commercial provider for access to space and docking with the ISS, which is different from the term "Spaceflight participant" in that those that flew to the ISS all flew on a Soyuz (although Christa McAuliffe was retroactively classified as a Spaceflight Participant once the term was created). A commercial astronaut is employed by the company sending them to space, whether they are employed to be an astronaut or not; I suppose if Axiom "hires" each of the crewmembers (Mike Lopez-Alegria is already employed by them, so he would be a commercial astronaut for this flight; if Chris Ferguson flies for Boeing then he'd be their commercial astronaut) then they'd all be commercial astronauts. There's no defining that term to be a professional astronaut, but there should be some differentiation between those who work for the company as their job and who fly, and those who work for the company for purposes of ease of paperwork.

Personally, I would call any non-professional who flies a "Private Astronaut" (encompassing and retroactively classifying Space Tourists and Spaceflight Participants), while those who are professionals would be a "Commercial Astronaut". I'd leave NASA Payload Specialists (trained and flown by NASA) and Intercosmos (trained and flown by Russia) as is, but those people had jobs to do in space (on the shuttle or Mir). I'd reclassify Nelson and Garn, the two US Congressmen, as Spaceflight Participants as well. But that's just me. Wizardimps (talk) 00:03, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

The fact is the FAA definition of 'Commercial Astronaut' is broad, includes 'trained to undertake whatever tasks are required of them as a member of crew', in both Virgin and Blue Origin cases, the crew does have an element of flight training, have been trained in SOME emergency scenarios (maybe just 'how to press the big red button that says 'fire suppression'" but that is still training.) There is however no evidence that the FAA have formally recognised them as 'commercial astronauts' so I've removed the FAA reference from the list, replaced it with the company names, I think this makes it clear that 'we say we're commercial astronauts so we are' and lets the reader ponder if that 'really counts' JeffUK (talk) 06:42, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Inspiration4 crew did conduct experiments ( https://www.space.com/inspiration4-health-medical-science-research-plans ) and piloted their vehicle. If VirginGalactic pilots qualify, then there is no reason not to qualify Inspiration4 crew. Ether all VirginGalactic pilots should be removed or at least people piloting Inspiraction4 should IMO. If however, you decide not to include them, I would suggest writing why is that and provide a link to list that does include that people.

Commercial Astronauts / Tourists

If we list Branson then we should probably list Jeff Bezos as well, or list both in Space tourism. List Mark Bezos in space tourism? Currently neither list has them. --mfb (talk) 11:40, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Mfb (talk · contribs) hope you don't mind me re-purposing your section in the talk page!

I think we need a consensus on how we handle the Virgin Galactic and Blue Origin flights, I propose my solution of leaving them in, as reliable(?) sources describe these people as 'Commercial Astronauts' but identifying whether or not they are 'FAA Certified Commercial Astronauts who have been issued flight wings'. Or we rename the article to FAA Commercial Astronauts to be clear we are only talking about astronauts officially recognised by the FAA? JeffUK (talk) 13:01, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Virgin Galactic and Blue Origin will award their own astronaut wings to their passengers, whether or not the FAA recognizes them. If we continue to include them in the list than the list will grow too large with too many (dare I say it) unimportant people. I support moving this article to FAA Commercial Astronauts and having only those awarded FAA wings be included on the list. And a note on the sources- they only describe them as 'commercial astronauts' because that's what they were under the old FAA rules, which have now changed. The list should reflect that change. Lyrim (talk) 16:45, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

On reflection, I don't think we need to rename the article, the definition in the lead is based on the only reliable source (the FAA) the definition therefore needs to change. Once the definition in the lead is up to date, that will exclude the recent spaceflights. We can reference the controversy in the lead I'm going to try and edit in that direction and see where we end up. JeffUK (talk) 17:33, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Here's a source link from SpaceNews. I'm sure there are other WP:SECONDARY sources covering the FAA's new process and US regulatory directive. SpaceNews link to story on the FAA new "astronaut" process I don't have time to update the article just now. N2e (talk) 19:01, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Let's keep in mind, however, that this is merely a directive on how the FAA gives "astronaut" wings etc. The FAA is just one particular US organization in the global space community, and their US/internal gvmt process is not and never will be the only process by which ceremonial designations of such honorifics or credentials are granted.

In fact, in a few years, when more ppl are flying to space via private means than have ever been in space through the first six+ decades that governments were the only entities sending ppl to space, it is unclear these little plastic "wings" from a nation state will even be the most important designation as to someone's in-space status.

(im the one who made the initial edits about the FAA change, just finally made an account), i think its necessary to separate 'commercial astronauts' from 'space tourists', yes i am aware that sources have been calling them commercial astronauts but this i would consider is inaccurate/a mistake on part of these mainstream media sources. Astronaut is a career not an award in the same way that you are not an aviator for sitting in the back of an A380 and you're not a sailor for going for a ride on a cruise ship. Having said that, the live stream for the virgin galactic flight did include a section on the roles that each passenger/crew member would be conducting. For example Branson was evaluating the passenger/customer service experience. Whether this classifies him/them as crew and thus astronauts, i dont know... but the blue origin flight was entirely automated and all passengers on board just sat back and enjoyed the ride. MrPi1ot(talk) 00:47, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I have updated the article to that effect, hopefully making it slightly clearer why those people are excluded in the lead, to avoid repeated re-editing and adding them in; all in good faith I'm sure. as an aside, there does seem to be a proliferation of 'people who have been to space in some capacity or another' articles on Wikipedia, but as your link says, this probably reflects the actual position of the sources available to us, i.e., it is unclear who counts as what sort of space-farer, or what even counts as space! so trying to make it look simple would probably be misleading. JeffUK (talk) 09:00, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Can We move the list of commercial astronauts to inside the FAA subsection? Considering that only those certified by the FAA are on the list, might as well combine both. Lyrim (talk) 23:29, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Done. --mfb (talk) 02:47, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Not sure I agree with this, on the one hand, the definition of commercial astronaut doesn't preclude someone from being a commercial astronaut just because hey haven't been awarded FAA wings. Although in the absence of any non-US private space companies in operation at the moment, this probably won't be an issue we have to worry about for a while JeffUK (talk) 06:39, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps we can rename the list "List of FAA Commercial Astronauts" and remove the 'awarding body' heading. When other non-US private space companies begin operating, they can have their own subsection. I just wanted everything from the same country to be combined into one subsection; you're right to say this article is not just about US commercial astronauts. Lyrim (talk) 16:21, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

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