- Belle Knox (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
Speedy deleted as G4. WP:CSD#G4 states, "This excludes pages that are not substantially identical to the deleted version." The newer article is not substantially identical to the previous version, which was deleted after an AfD about six months ago. BLP1E was the primary reason for deletion; since then the person has been the subject of a biopic series that represents significant continuing and expanded coverage compared to what was available at the time of the previous AfD. Requesting that the speedy be overturned to allow a full discussion. VQuakr (talk) 03:32, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- ...I was under the impression that you were going to open a DRV on the first AfD now that new sources have emerged? (hence my comments about it being a BLP and we should avoid recreating it until we are certain it is notable) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:41, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- @The ed17: I guess I do not understand why I would, but then again this is my first DRV creation so it is quite plausible that I do not understand the process. I agreed with the first AfD closure; I disagree with the second because it does not appear to be justified by any policy or guideline. What in WP:BLP mandates deletion of the article during a notability discussion? VQuakr (talk) 04:20, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- The reason why I told you to come here is right underneath the listed purposes of DRV: "if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page". Hence, reexamining the first AfD. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 04:36, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:DRV is neither policy nor guideline. The relevant policy, linked above, makes it clear IMHO that the 2nd AfD was closed
inappropriately incorrectly. VQuakr (talk) 06:17, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Relist at AFD The above discussion isn't too inspiring. The nomination says it wasn't the same as the deleted, then goes on to make a general assertion that things have changed not giving any context as to how the article may have substantially changed as a result - one more source doesn't seem substantial to me. Similarly starting on the this isn't policy sort of arguments aren't usually a good sign of a reasonable discussion ahead. The question should surely be, what is the "best" way of resolving this? That said, since this documentary is currently airing having the article present for reevaluation now, would seem to be the best way of minimizing the overall exposure for the individual if the new AfD concludes on BLP1E also. --86.2.216.5 (talk) 08:05, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- IP, I avoided going into details because I was under the impression that the purpose of DRV is to review a closure, not have an AfD discussion in a separate venue. Some discussion of recreation started at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Pornography#Belle_Knox.2C_revisited prior the article being created by a new editor; I think those arguments likely would appear in a new AfD discussion as well. Since the subject sat for interviews and generally quite clearly was a willing participant in the documentary, I do not think "minimizing exposure" is necessary to stay compliant with WP:BLP. VQuakr (talk) 15:25, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- If you are raising a question around a G4 since you think the article was substantially different, saying what was different is going to be pretty essential, that isn't the same as putting an AFD argument forward (e.g. it was restructured/expanded/whatever and there are these x additional references added). The general principals of BLP are around being sensitive to living subjects and respecting their privacy, of course excessive exposure we give here is a BLP concern. The person deleting it as G4 stated it as a reason they weren't keen on leaving it on view for too long, I see no reason to believe that person's concern isn't genuine (Regardless of if you or I agree with that concern, clearly others do think it's still a problem). To me the best way to minimise that is to get it out of the way now with regards the new evidence, whilst the topic is still getting active exposure, rather than waiting until it's finished. --86.2.216.5 (talk) 17:49, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- The page appears to be creation-protected. I cannot see any documentation on why, or who did it. AfD was contested, but driven by an argument on poor sourcing. Poor sourcing as a deletion is overcome by new quality sources. I cannot see the deleted content, but strongly suspect that it contained new sources and thus is a straight Overturn AfD2, not a proper G4 deletion. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:21, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you. I expected to find protection logs when going to Belle Knox, or when attempting to create it. Is there an easy way to review all logs for a page like this? Is see that the dfault is to display only deletion and move logs. The new sources, and "Belle Knox is the subject of a new Condé Nast Entertainment docuseries" are not consistent with WP:CSD#G4. The BLP argument for page protection here is weak. Shouldn't these things go through a WP:RPPP process, if not the direct outcome of an XfD discussion? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:35, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Whichever way around we do it, the thing that's blatantly clear to me is that Belle Knox shouldn't be a redlink. It's such a depressingly plausible search term; by converting it to a redlink, Wikipedia's processes have failed. There will, obviously, be persistent attempts to create an article in that space. Whether Belle Knox should point to a biographical article about the lady in question is much less clear, and we need a way to have an intelligent discussion about it that respects the subject. I view of the BLP concerns, putting a biographical stub into mainspace while we go through an AfD process seems suboptimal to me. AfD is the right process, though, as SmokeyJoe suggests, so I think we need an unconventional solution. Can we allow creation as a draft, or in userspace, or some other unindexed space, and then AfD the draft in order to establish a consensus? I do mean "AfD" and not "MfD" because I feel that it should be assessed as an article, not as userspace content. The AfD listing should say that this is a plausible search term and should direct AfD participants who don't think we should have a biography to consider whether it could be redirected, and if so, to where.—S Marshall T/C 15:44, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply] - Comment - I know nothing about the subject or the article in question, but just wanted to comment that I think Ed (the deleting admin) is mistaken on the relevant policies (based on what he has written above and on his talk page). WP:DRVPURPOSE says you may use DRV when an article has been deleted but significant new information has come to light that would justify recreation. It does not say that you must or even should use DRV in such cases. It is common for articles to be recreated without discussion once new information has come to light. WP:DRVPURPOSE says you can choose to start a DRV in such cases, but that would only be if you think one is warranted (for instance, if you want some other people's opinion on the new sources before starting an article, or want to see the prior content of the article rather than starting a new version from scratch). However, it is definitely not required to use DRV to recreate a deleted article. Conversely, WP:SPEEDY#G4 can only be used when the recreated article is substantially identical to the deleted version. If in this case new sources were listed in the recreated article that weren't present in the deleted version, it should not have been deleted under G4. Calathan (talk) 18:08, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse AFD1 as within discretion. As an irrelevant technicality overturn AFD2 because the rough consensus was not "speedy delete G4". Overturn the G4 speedy deletion because an admin tells us four additional references had been added and these might affect a BLP1E assessment. It was appropriate to have raised this DRV. Thincat (talk) 13:36, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- overturn/relist sources about this subject continue to appear, including a multipart documentary. G4 was not appropriateGaijin42 (talk) 16:17, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn salt, overturn G4, oveturn 2nd AfD, WP:NPASR The reasons as stated at [5] don't seem to be valid reasons for using these tools, and the 2nd AfD result was speedy delete as per G4:
- 2014-09-18T07:10:40 The ed17 (talk | contribs) protected Belle Knox [create=sysop] (indefinite) (Recently deleted BLP) (hist)
- 2014-09-18T07:08:32 The ed17 (talk | contribs) deleted page Belle Knox (G4: Recreation of a page that was deleted per a deletion discussion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Belle Knox (2nd nomination))
- Unscintillating (talk) 01:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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