- Linda Weber (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
The article was closed as no consensus with 5 keep votes and 5 delete votes. At first glance this would seem like a reasonable decision.Although I did not discuss this with the closing admin, someone else already did asking why the article was not relisted.
USER:Northamerica1000 (the closing admin) gave the following response "Hi Marquardtika: I don't know, the discussion has already received a great deal of input from many users, and there really is no consensus for a particular result regarding the article. Discourse regarding the subject in the discussion has declined in recent days, and was mostly limited between two users, (Bearcat and Tomwsulcer), who are obviously in disagreement. Also of note is that per WP:RELIST, it states, "relisting should not be a substitute for a "no consensus" closure. If the closer feels there has been substantive debate, disparate opinions supported by policy have been expressed, and consensus has not been achieved, a no-consensus close may be preferable." At this time, I feel that adequate, guideline-based commentary has transpired in the discussion, and that closing now as no consensus is appropriate."
I disagree, I would have relisted or the consensus actually could have been found to be delete. While Tomwsulcer was very vocal about his reasons to keep, at least two keep votes gave no reason at all to keep and should be discounted. Just simply saying keep as per someone else is not a legit vote in a controversial AfD. As per AfD rules "When making your case or responding to others, explain how the article meets/violates policy rather than merely stating that it meets/violates the policy." They didn't even state that it meets a policy. Instead their reason should be viewed as I want to keep this article regardless so whatever the other guy said must be a good reason. The least they could have done was try to strengthen the other person's keep argument. All the delete arguments on the other hand gave at least a one sentence explanation if not more. Rusf10 (talk) 00:38, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- One of our principles is that basic notability standards are written in very general terms, rather than trying to preemptively address every possible permutation — we use expanded notability guidelines to clarify the more complex points, while leaving the basic summaries as general and brief as possible. I have worked on an expanded WP:NPOL guideline in the past, but it's not ready for prime time yet — but until one is actually in place, you need to be familiar with actual AFD practice in similar situations, rather than just arguing that the letter of a notability criterion is technically satisfied in a situation where AFD does have an established consensus about it already. The actual AFD practice on unelected candidates is that the inevitable coverage they receive in that context is not in and of itself assistive of getting them over WP:GNG, precisely because such coverage always exists but a reason why they're of worldwide encyclopedic interest that will last ten years into the future does not. So the mere existence of media coverage is not an automatic GNG pass for an unelected candidate in and of itself, precisely because every unelected candidate would always clear GNG if it were. Bearcat (talk) 19:51, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse- the delete arguments are indeed stronger, but not so much that a "no consensus" close is unreasonable. Reyk YO! 08:52, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse I also think there's a more substantial case for deletion than keeping in that discussion, and if I'd taken part I would have supported deletion, but I don't think the Keep arguments are bad enough for this to be closed as Delete. The Keep arguments didn't just assert that the article met notability guidelines, they presented evidence and arguments to support that. An argument which says "per X" isn't necessarily a problem as long as X made a valid/useful argument. Relisting isn't a substitute for no consensus, as the closing admin told you, and it's normally used when the debate didn't get much participation or when something important changed late in the discussion. This one had plenty of participation and nothing changed towards the end. Hut 8.5 15:37, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse there was sufficient participation for a close Atlantic306 (talk) 17:06, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse the administrator's "no consensus" close was reasonable given the discussion. SportingFlyer (talk) 18:44, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I was confused by the close because I've only every seen congressional candidate bios (and quite a few of them) deleted per WP:POLOUTCOMES. User:Bearcat explained quite well why coverage of campaigns alone doesn't amount to WP:SIGCOV. Maybe the consensus is changing on that, although besides this close I haven't seen reason to believe so. I don't have any experience with deletion review, but I can renominate this page for deletion at some point and I would be very surprised if it is kept again because I've only ever seen similar pages deleted in the past. Marquardtika (talk) 18:11, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think consensus is changing, but I do think that there is a varying level of intensity across campaigns, which can lead to some discrepant outcomes. WP:POLOUTCOMES expresses consensus as candidates being "often deleted or merged into lists of campaign hopefuls." In many cases, the outcome depends on when or if someone requests a redirect at XfD rather than straight deletion. If a redirect is requested, then a redirect is the usual result. If there are active supporters of a campaign participating in the discussion, my sense is that there is more disagreement about the standard of review, and closers will give a no consensus close. If the campaign is stale, it is much more likely that a deletion occurs (for major party congressional candidates in the US). --Enos733 (talk) 06:50, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. She probably fails npol but passes gng. There was plenty of chat and its not a fair delete based upon a quick look at the refs - no point relisting. Discordant views on whether it is keep or delete here says its NC - good close. Szzuk (talk) 20:48, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse, we do not relist continually in order to get a decisive result. A 'no consensus' was the correct call here, as opposed to kicking the can down the road for another week. Lankiveil (speak to me) 01:01, 19 February 2018 (UTC).[reply]
- Comment- I see that 5-5 = no consensus, but what about the fact that some of the keep votes didn't provide any explanation to back up their vote?--Rusf10 (talk) 01:12, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Please read previous comments.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 02:10, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse The "no consensus" close was reasonable and within the closer's discretion, although I think the deletion arguments were much stronger in this case. It is often helpful, in some cases, like this one, if the closer explains some of their rational in closing the XfD. --Enos733 (talk) 06:34, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. Even as arguably the person who was most vocal in rebutting the keep arguments in this discussion, and whose mind has not actually been changed that deletion is the right course here, there were enough of them to rebut that a "no consensus" close was not unreasonable. Remember that "no consensus" means the article can be renominated for another discussion — but it was getting out of hand enough that starting a new one from scratch would be preferable to simply leaving the first one open for an additional period of time. Bearcat (talk) 19:51, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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