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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Hawkeye7 via FACBot (talk) 23 September 2019 [1].

2019 Tour Championship

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Nominator(s): Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:34, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Fantastic professional snooker event from earlier this year. Eight-person (7 match) tournament, with two matches being decided on the final ball, and Ronnie O'Sullivan making his 1,000th century break in the final frame of the final. Great event, recently passed GA.

All comments welcome. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:34, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Support by Kosack

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Lead

Tournament summary

First round

Century breaks

  • I notice you've been removing flags on other snooker GA articles recently. This may need doing here also if you're going that way.

References

  • I'd have the notes under their own heading rather than combining them with the references.
    •  Done

Had a quick run through, I'll try and look more closely when I find the time. Kosack (talk) 13:13, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Additional points

Added a few more points @Lee Vilenski:. Kosack (talk) 09:56, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your review, Kosack, I think I have it all. Please let me know what else needs looking at. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 08:06, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is in good shape after the recent work undertaken. Happy to support. Kosack (talk) 18:53, 25 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator notes

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Unfortunately this is getting close to the one-month mark without any support for promotion. It will be archived soon if it does not attract some more review. --Laser brain (talk) 12:58, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'll see what I can do Laser_brain, I'll go and badger some people. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:46, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think we're about there now and was looking to promote but then I couldn't spot a source review for reliability and formatting -- if not done yet you can request at the top of WT:FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:24, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have requested this. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:56, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ian Rose - any ideas who I could badger who might do a source review? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:20, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Andy, would you like to take this one and I'll take care of closure as and when appropriate? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:14, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I can do it within the next 24 hours. --Laser brain (talk) 17:16, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Nigej

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Lead

Tournament summary

First Round

Semi-finals

Final

Coral Cup

Main draw

General

  • Various mentions of the Coral Cup before we get to the Coral Cup section. Maybe not a problem.
  • Do we need repetition of "March 2019"? Isn't enough "March" enough for the 2019 Tour Championship.
    • I'll remove.
  • "between 21–22 March 2019" (and similar) read a little oddly to me.
    • reworded 13:38, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Nigej (talk) 10:36, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Rodney Baggins

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Hi Lee, do you want me to list stuff here for you to check first, or shall I just go ahead and edit the article as I see fit? Or a mix of both? Rodney Baggins (talk) 16:10, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK, here are some general comments after my first skim through:

  • MOS:DATERANGE says (in bullet 8): "Use an en dash, or a word such as from or between, but not both", so for example "from 19–24 March 2019" should really be "from 19 to 24 March 2019" (in lead and Tournament summary section). Other date ranges in the article with the same issue: "held from 19–21 March" (First round); "held from 21–22 March" (Semi-finals); "played from 23–24 March" (Final). The last two I would just change to "held on 21 and 22 March" and "played on 23 and 24 March" respectively. Also "between 1987–2005" (at end of Final section) should really be "between 1987 and 2005". This is a problem I've noticed in a lot of the snooker articles and it really bugs me!
Yeah, I was recently told this was the correct way to deal with this, and didn't check it out. You are totally right, I'll work through the article. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:10, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Got this one  Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:16, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why have you decided not to hyphenate the "best-of-n-frames" construct? Strictly speaking, this is a compound adjective that is used to attribute the word "match" and as such it should have hyphens to be grammatically correct. Also inconsistent at the moment, as Semi-finals section has "best-of-19 frame matches" and Final has "best-of-25 frames match" – if we do go with hyphens, these should be "best-of-19-frame matches" and "best-of-25-frames match" respectively. (Although, to be REALLY pedantic the first one should be "best-of-19-frames matches" with plural 'frames' but I admit that sounds plain weird!)
Nope you are correct. I'll work my way through. It's another issue I don't really know which is right, but enough people have commented now, that the hyphens must be. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:10, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Got them all.  Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:23, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Inconsistent "frame nine", "frame ten", "frame five", "frames three and four" – all the rest use a digit.
 Not done - That one is a MOS:NUM issue. Numbers one-nine should be words, whilst numbers higher than 11 are digits. (Unless it's an age, or a name). Not much I can do to change that one. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:05, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Score expressed as, for example, "four all" – not seen that before – I notice it's used inconsistently, because there's a "six-all" (First round) and a "nine-all" (Final) whereas all the others are non-hyphenated. Personally I would hyphenate, or better still I would not use this format at all, just say "6–6" or "9–9" like we normally do. Also, "one all" (Semi-finals) might be better as "one frame apiece"?
  • And this last one's a biggy... How do we deal with the fact that Coral Cup is a horse race, and Coral Cup is a snooker competition? I really think we need a new article called Coral Cup (snooker) to clear up this anomoly and also to contain all the cup-related information as a separate entity from the Coral article which is just about the sponsor.
I don't think it's a Biggie. I could redlink it, or create a redirect to the season article, or even the section on the coral cup on this article. We do know it will become a thing each year now, so I'll potentially just add it as a REDLINK. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:07, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Linked to the redlink. It'll either be created or redirected. Clearly notable. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:26, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'll go through the individual sections now and get back to you again if there's anything I'm not sure about. Otherwise I'll go ahead and make a few minor grammatical improvements if you're OK with that? Rodney Baggins (talk) 19:47, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine,thanks for commenting, I'll work my way through. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:03, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Think I have got it all. Take another look through, make sure you are happy. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:23, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your time Rodney Baggins Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:31, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Suggested wording changes (RB)

Lee, you've probably noticed I've been making a few careful changes to the article. I've tried to make lots of little edits (rather than my normal method of blanket copyediting entire sections...) so you can follow exactly what I'm doing and easily revert any edits that you don't like. On my travels, I've picked up on the fact that you like to use the word "saw" a lot, which comes across as an idiosynchrosy that should perhaps be avoided (no offence!) Please consider these wording changes:

  • The series saw players qualify by virtue of their placement...

–→ The players qualified for the series by virtue of their placement...

  • The event saw the top eight players from the one-year ranking list play in a single elimination tournament.

–→ The event featured the top eight players from the one-year ranking list taking part in a single elimination tournament.

  • For the first time since the 2010 UK Championship, the Tour Championship saw an event, other than the World Championship, that was contested with every match being played over multiple sessions, with two in the quarters and semis, and three in the final.

–→ The Tour Championship was the first event since the 2010 UK Championship (and other than the World Championship) in which every match was played over multiple sessions, with two in the quarter-finals and semi-finals, and three in the final.

  • The second first round match saw reigning Masters champion Judd Trump draw ...

–→ In the second first round match, reigning Masters champion Judd Trump drew ...

  • The third first round match saw Ronnie O'Sullivan play Stuart Bingham.

–→ Ronnie O'Sullivan played Stuart Bingham in the third first round match.

  • The fourth and final first round match saw a repeat of the 2018 Masters final, with...

–→ The fourth and final first round match was a repeat of the 2018 Masters final, with...

  • The second round saw the four remaining players compete in two, best-of-19-frames matches

–→ In the second round, the four remaining players competed in two best-of-19-frames matches (note comma removed after 'two')

  • The first session of the match saw Trump take the first frame

–→ Trump took the first frame in the opening session of the match

  • The second session saw O'Sullivan clinch the first two frames

–→ O'Sullivan clinched the first two frames of the second session

  • Frame 16 saw Allen score enough to take the frame to the snookers required stage

–→ In frame 16, Allen scored enough to take the frame to the "snookers required" stage ("snookers required" picked out in quotes?)

  • The final frame of the session saw Robertson make a frame-winning 48 break

–→ Robertson made a frame-winning 48 break in the final frame of the session

  • The final session saw O'Sullivan win frame 17 with a break of 129

–(either)→ O'Sullivan won frame 17, the first of the final session, with a break of 129
–(or)→ O'Sullivan won the first frame of the final session (frame 17) with a break of 129

  • The win saw O'Sullivan win his 36th career ranking championship

–→ This was the 36th ranking championship victory of O'Sullivan's career ?

I do have more comments. Watch this space. Rodney Baggins (talk) 14:42, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'll work my way through these, should be easy enough. Allow me a day or two, as I'm quite busy with work and stuff. 08:14, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
I have gotten all of these, thanks for your excellent responses! Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:51, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"Breaking down" explanation? (RB)

The term "breaking down" or "broke down" is causing me some concern. I think this might be a bit of terminology that the uninformed observer (non-snooker fan) might not understand. At best they will think the player lost the plot, messed things up, threw a wobbler, or something. At worst, they will go into the glossary of terms and find that he must have suddenly decided to take his cue to pieces (see break down one's cue). Unfortunately there is no entry in the cue sports glossary for "breaking down" in the sense of "coming to the end of the break", so we either need to avoid the term, or provide a note in the article to cover it, or add a new entry into the glossary with a link through. There are actually three examples of this in the article:


Rodney Baggins (talk) 22:00, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Let me know if there is more, or if you are happy to support, Rodney Baggins. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:54, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Further comments (RB)

Hello again, I'm not happy to support this article just yet as I'm still finding fault with it. Maybe I'm being too picky, but apart from the minor edits I've been making over the past couple of days, I have the following comments/queries: (take a deep breath)

(1) There's an anomoly with the tournament chronology: "The first round was held from 19 to 21 March" (over three days) so this would mean the first round was still finishing off on the 21st. But that was the same day the semi-finals started: "The first [semi-final] match was played on 21 March". So did the 1st semi-final take place while the 1st round was still being completed, on the 21st of March?? Or did the first round in fact take place over just two days, i.e. 19 and 20 March? So it was completed before the semi-finals started?

Looking into it, it was the 19th and 20th for the first round. Changed. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:48, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(2) Lead section:

  • Article title ("2019 Tour Championship") is not reiterated in first sentence of lead ("2019 Coral Tour Championship")
  • It has been pointed out to me that the championship does not literally consist of the players, they are just the pool of participants, i.e. they make up the "draw" for the competition. So we perhaps need to change the wording to make that clear, i.e. change "The Tour Championship comprised the top eight players" → "The draw for the Tour Championship comprised the top eight players"
  • "In a repeat of the Players Championship final two weeks prior, Ronnie O'Sullivan defeated Neil Robertson 13–11 to claim his 36th ranking title" – this implies that Ronnie also beat Neil by 13 frames to 11 and claimed his 36th ranking title in the Players Championship final – even though I know this isn't what is meant, that is literally what it says. The only thing that was repeated was the fact that the two players met in the final and Ronnie beat Neil. Not sure what to do about this, but I've seen it in some other snooker articles and it always irks me! We could say "Ronnie O'Sullivan defeated Neil Robertson in the final, in a repeat of the Players Championship final two weeks prior, to claim his 36th ranking title" – but that doesn't work in the 13–11 scoreline.
    • In a repeat of the Players Championship final two weeks prior, Ronnie O'Sullivan met Neil Robertson in the final of the event. O'Sullivan won the event 13–11 to claim his 36th ranking title, equalling Stephen Hendry's record of total ranking event wins. - I think that works Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:48, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(3) Tournament summary: pretty much OK now apart from one thing – "of this length or longer" – this is confusing. What exactly does it mean and what is it referring to? Does it mean that this was the first final played as best of 25 frames (other than the worlds) since 1992 UK final? So has there been a final played over more than 25 frames during that time period?

Well, the inverse is the issue. If you say there hasn't been one of this length, then the Worlds (35) and the 1992 UK (31) also don't apply. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:48, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(4) First round:

  • "...went to the final black. After Selby attempted to double the black ball, Robertson potted the black to win the frame and match." → to avoid black/black ball/black repetition, could we change this to: "went to the final black. After Selby attempted a double, Robertson potted the black ball to win the frame and match." (This also works better because the glossary treats "double" as a noun rather than a verb.)
  • before Allen made a break of 71 → before losing his momentum in frame 16 allowing Allen to make a break of 71 ...(highlights Wilson's good play coming to an end?)

(5) Semi-finals and Finals: Still a few tweaks, leave that to me.

(6) References:

  • I've noticed that 20 of the references have World Professional Billiards and Snooker Association as publisher. This long name written out in full each time takes up an awful lot of unnecessary physical space – you might consider using the acronym WPBSA to save space?
    • I'm not worried about space, nor is it an FAC requirement. There are plenty of userscripts and add-ons that disable references until the ones you want to read,and in mobile (where it would be neccesary) it can be closed. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:48, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The access date parameter is unnecessary if the citation has a fixed publication date that serves to uniquely identify it (as with online news articles with publication dates) – see Template:Cite web – this is also good for saving physical space in the References section. Access date is even more irrelevant if you are making use of the archive, because the archive date pins down the exact date at which the article was captured.
    • To be fari, cite web just says it isn't neccesary to include an accessdate for refs with a publication date. Online sources (even published ones) do get changed after publication which is why I prefer to include an access date. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:48, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are lots of missing publication dates, but I can add those in for you.
  • There are some incorrect publication dates, but again I can correct those for you.
  • Refs. 15 & 16 are pointing to the same place, but neither of them are showing the correct title. Title of ref.15 is "Tour Championship semi-final: Judd Trump leads Ronnie O'Sullivan 6–2"; title of ref.16 is "Trump leaves Ronnie in trouble"; current title of article at that URL is "Tour Championship semi-final: Ronnie O'Sullivan beats Judd Trump 10-9". This is probably because the article was updated a couple of times as play was in progress. Might want to grab the relevant archives for backing up specifics in the text? Unless the specifics are in the final version of the article.
  • Ref. 33 was giving a 404 error but the archive was not relevant because it was showing the earnings after the 2019 Coral World Grand Prix, with Judd Trump at the top, Ronnie right down the list. I've fixed this by grabbing the latest archive from 31 March which shows the earnings after the 2019 Coral Tour Championship.
  • Ref. 35 archive is of no use whatsoever. Ref.35 shows the 1 YEAR RANKING LIST after the 2019 International Championship. Archive for Ref.35 (archive date 7 Feb 2017) shows the 1 YEAR RANKING LIST after the 2017 F66.com German Masters. So neither of these are any good for our article, which requires the 1 YEAR RANKING LIST after the 2019 Gibraltar Open. I can't find an archive that shows a snapshot of the list at this stage (would be around 20 March 2019) so not sure what to do here!

Almost there... Rodney Baggins (talk) 16:54, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, I'll work my way through - thank you for your work and comments. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:24, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Got most of these. Thanks for your time. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:48, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Final comments (RB)

I got rather carried away, but wanted to do my best for you, hope you have not been too frustrated with me! I am happy to support the article for FA now but must point out the following things:

  • In Tournament summary: "The final ... was the first non-World Championship match of this length or longer since the 1992 UK Championship final" still uses confused logic (for me) – I understand that the 1992 UK final was best of 31 frames, and since then, other than the Worlds (which we can effectively ignore as they are a special case), there has been no other final played over anything more than best of 25 frames. I think this might be better explained by simply saying: "The final ... was the longest non-World Championship match since the 1992 UK Championship final (which was best of 31 frames)."
  • In Final: "The winner of the match would also win the Coral Cup" – this implies that the Coral Cup goes to the winner of the Tour Championship. Looking at the numbers, it can be worked out that if Robertson had won this final, he would have earned just slightly more than O'Sullivan over the 3 events, and would therefore have won the Coral Cup, so it just so happens this year that the winner of the final would also win the Coral Cup, but that is not always necessarily going to be the case every year. Not sure what to do about that at the moment, but I just thought I should point it out to you!
    • I think that's the point being made. Maybe it's poorly worded. I'll see if I can come up with better prose.
→ Suggestion: "Given the prize money earned by both players up to this stage in the series, the winner of the match would also stand to win the Coral Cup itself (awarded to the player who accumulates the most prize money over the three Coral tournaments)." It came to me in my sleep last night! Rodney Baggins (talk) 08:36, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • And finally, I still have all sorts of problems with the references. I've added in some of the missing date parameters and made a few corrections, but there are still things that need sorting out. Maybe this is not a deal breaker for the FA and we could discuss it separately on the Talk page or something? Ref. 13 obviously contained live scores at some point, and has been used to back up some of the frame info, but there is now nothing there. Refs. 15 & 16 are still bothering me. Refs. 24 & 28 are exactly the same ref. And ref. 35 is an odd one. Anyway, I can always revisit that tomorrow, but please let me know what you want to do about that.
    Best wishes, Rodney Baggins (talk) 23:09, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Betty Logan

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Lead

Referencing

  • There are some style differences between the World Snooker citations. Compare the format in citations 2–6 to those in 28–30 for example. Both styles are acceptable, but a consistent style should be used throughout.
  • Another issues with the World Snooker referencing is that "World Snooker" is wikilinked in some instances and not in others. I would suggest just linking the term in the first reference, or all of them per WP:REPEATLINK
  • The Reuters reference in citation#32 is sloppy. It is not an editorial, it is an authored piece. The citation should be corrected to include the author's name and the agency= parameter should be set to "Reuters".

Frame numbers

Match scores

Image placement

This all looks very doable, with the lede issues being the biggest work. I'll get on these as soon as I get to a PC. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 06:07, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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